Off Topic Written College Project - Fiat Panda mk2 Rally Car

[FDNY21]

You would be looking at moving to a Punto or similar box which LSDs are available to fit.

Whatever bigger engine you want to fit it's going to involve modification to the electrics if you want it to run to its full potential. Depending on exactly what engine you use dictates what is actually needed to be done. Turbos mean custom manifolds and plenty of other extra things, and you would have to go to an aftermarket ECU to get it running right.

Is there a 1.4 Punto (or other car) that could lend the engine, gearbox, ECU and wiring all to the Panda? That way, the LSD could be purchased to fit the Punto box, the engine is at full potential for the championship and the wiring/ECU has it running right as it is meant to be running that engine with that box. I believe the mk2 Punto can be a 1368 fire 16v so is that a viable option?

I could also research custom ECUs and looms and see how much it would cost me to get one for a mk2 Punto engine/box in the Panda. If it would be better to go custom for a mk2 1.4 setup then that's fine. The more competitive in the championship, the better

 

[FDNY21]

You would be looking at moving to a Punto or similar box which LSDs are available to fit.

Whatever bigger engine you want to fit it's going to involve modification to the electrics if you want it to run to its full potential. Depending on exactly what engine you use dictates what is actually needed to be done. Turbos mean custom manifolds and plenty of other extra things, and you would have to go to an aftermarket ECU to get it running right.

Also found this on the 1.2 swap guide, at the bottom:

Punto Mk2 16V engine

- This engine uses a different ecu and wiring. It is also fitted with a fly-by-wire throttle. Some people convert this by fitting a mk1 inlet manifold and ecu, others fit an alternative throttle body and use an aftermarket ecu. It can be made to work using the Punto throttle pedal and wiring. For more ideas see the cinq/sei section of FF

Punto/Stilo 1400 16V

- The remarks for the mk2 16v also apply for this engine. Also as it has more torque than the 1242 16v you really need to fit the Punto/Stilo gearbox.​

So, by the sounds of it you can use the mk2 16v (might be 1.2 rather than 1.4 but I assume if you find a 1368 fire then you can still do it) engine and box and then convert the inlet manifold and get an aftermarket ECU.

 

[The Panda Nut]

In the old days we would all leap and say fit the Fiat 2 litre twin cam from the 131 / 132. I drove a Skoda Estelle so equipped a few years back and it was quite amusing.

 

[panda-sport]

Road/race 1242 16v sparco fia cage



Rally 1242 16v (punto mk2) supercharged Steve Walford Motorsport cage



Road/drag/autotest 1368 16v with 1242 16v punto mk1 inlet/electronics



Full race 1368 16v itb's aftermarket ecu 120bhp 6speed gearbox lsd Girola fia cage

 

[rallycinq]

Although its not a Panda, this might help

https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/73439-beast-lives.html

D

 

[FDNY21]

Thanks for all the info everyone, I'm glad I decided to ask here for help with the project, there's no way I would have had this much info otherwise!

Just had a reply from the ASWMC. The bloke didn't send any extra regulations, but he did say it was fine to upgrade the Fiat Panda to 1368cc and then continue in the up to 1.4 championship. I'll ask again if there's any other regulations I can refer to.

Road/race 1242 16v sparco fia cage

Rally 1242 16v (punto mk2) supercharged Steve Walford Motorsport cage

Road/drag/autotest 1368 16v with 1242 16v punto mk1 inlet/electronics

Full race 1368 16v itb's aftermarket ecu 120bhp 6speed gearbox lsd Girola fia cage

Those specs and pictures are a great help! Do you mind if I refer to any of your pictures in the project?

I was also wondering if you had any more details on the last one. The 1368 16v with the mk1 inlet/electronics is a good one but I should research the aftermarket ECU one as well. Because it uses an aftermarket ECU, I take it that it uses aftermarket/custom wiring and the standard 1368 inlet? Any details on the brakes and suspension, and the gearbox with lsd?

Thanks very much - if you've got any pages with details on any of them then that would also be helpful!

 

[panda-sport]

Those specs and pictures are a great help! Do you mind if I refer to any of your pictures in the project?

That's why I posted them

I was also wondering if you had any more details on the last one. The 1368 16v with the mk1 inlet/electronics is a good one but I should research the aftermarket ECU one as well. Because it uses an aftermarket ECU, I take it that it uses aftermarket/custom wiring and the standard 1368 inlet?

Its a homemade wiring loom using raycem44 wire and a homemade inlet fitted with honda fireblade itb's (individual throttle bodies)

Any details on the brakes and suspension, and the gearbox with lsd?

Brakes are front panda mk3 diesel 240mm vented discs with willwood calipers on panda-sport mounts, rear are panda front discs and calipers. All fit under 13 inch wheels.

Suspension front lancia Y10 anti-roll bar, poly-bushed, panda-sport/steve walford motorsport custom coilovers. Rear hieght ajusters, rose jointed trailing arms. Uprated springs all round.

Gearbox is a fiat 500 6 speed fitted with custom mounts with a quaife diff .

Thanks very much - if you've got any pages with details on any of them then that would also be helpful!

There is the odd scattering of posts on here, search for panda-sport as these are all my cars. Maybe a phone interview may be in order?

 

[rallycinq]

You need to decide on a proposed budget before looking at car or engine. It makes a big difference in options.

Tesco value £10,000
Budget £20,000
Mid £30,000
Sensible £40,000
Pro £100,000+

Or £750,000 for the rally cars we build at 'day job'

D

 

[FDNY21]

Its a homemade wiring loom using raycem44 wire and a homemade inlet fitted with honda fireblade itb's (individual throttle bodies)

Brakes are front panda mk3 diesel 240mm vented discs with willwood calipers on panda-sport mounts, rear are panda front discs and calipers. All fit under 13 inch wheels.

Suspension front lancia Y10 anti-roll bar, poly-bushed, panda-sport/steve walford motorsport custom coilovers. Rear hieght ajusters, rose jointed trailing arms. Uprated springs all round.

Gearbox is a fiat 500 6 speed fitted with custom mounts with a quaife diff .

There is the odd scattering of posts on here, search for panda-sport as these are all my cars. Maybe a phone interview may be in order?

Thanks again for the info, sounds like I've got some options then First deciding on the engine, now deciding on what to go with it!

Brakes sound all good as well. You used a Fiat 500 gearbox, but could I assume the original Punto one could be used with custom mounts and an aftermarket diff?

I'll probably opt for the mk1 inlet with an aftermarket ECU. I don't have time in the project to design an inlet so a mk1 Punto inlet will do the trick. A good ECU with good wiring can be researched though, thanks to your info.

I think suspension is what I need to think about more right now as I'm happy with my options for most else, but I'm still not sure on the best suspension setup for this car. Because it's going to be on a sealed stage predominantly, is it worth going fully custom and having the added cost of that high tech suspension? If it is then I know a guy I can get in touch with to give me a ball park figure for some uprated stuff... then I can try and find some prices on the anti roll bars too

 

[rallycinq]

You could try for a Punto 1.1 6 speed as the basis for your box. You would need a quaife ATB but you'd need to engineer a solution for the crown wheel.

Alternatively, subject to costs, you could pop a Sadev 5 spd sequential in. Would need engineered shafts.

There are so many ways to skin this particular cat but you seem to be intent on majoring on the engine.

I prefer to engineer backwards from the wheels up (bear in mind that tarmac rallies confer more wear than gravel).

Sort out a lightweight, but strong wheel, maybe Compomotive. Stick with 13s.

Brakes, Uno turbo fronts are vented and will fit under 13s. You know about the rears.

Shafts, look at using bigger pots, I have smashed a few std CVs. Either that or budget to change at mid event service.

If you set a budget do realise that its very easy to exceed that by 100% without really trying.

D

 

[panda-sport]

Brakes sound all good as well. You used a Fiat 500 gearbox, but could I assume the original Punto one could be used with custom mounts and an aftermarket diff?

Take a look at the quaife group buy thread on this forum

I'll probably opt for the mk1 inlet with an aftermarket ECU. I don't have time in the project to design an inlet so a mk1 Punto inlet will do the trick. A good ECU with good wiring can be researched though, thanks to your info.

Why the mk1 inlet if you are using an aftermarket ecu? haltech elite, ecu master black, emerald k6+ etc

then I can try and find some prices on the anti roll bars too

check the eper link in the menu

I prefer to engineer backwards from the wheels up (bear in mind that tarmac rallies confer more wear than gravel).

This was what I was hinting earlier. Its an age thing. Tyres are everything with a race/rally car. You need to be competitive with engine power but it should always be the last on the list when building a car. Tyres, brakes, suspension, drivetrain ,engine.

Brakes, Uno turbo fronts are vented and will fit under 13s. You know about the rears.

The uno brakes won't fit under 13's in a panda due to the upright clearance sadly

 

[FDNY21]

You could try for a Punto 1.1 6 speed as the basis for your box. You would need a quaife ATB but you'd need to engineer a solution for the crown wheel.

Alternatively, subject to costs, you could pop a Sadev 5 spd sequential in. Would need engineered shafts.

There are so many ways to skin this particular cat but you seem to be intent on majoring on the engine.

I prefer to engineer backwards from the wheels up (bear in mind that tarmac rallies confer more wear than gravel).

Sort out a lightweight, but strong wheel, maybe Compomotive. Stick with 13s.

Brakes, Uno turbo fronts are vented and will fit under 13s. You know about the rears.

Shafts, look at using bigger pots, I have smashed a few std CVs. Either that or budget to change at mid event service.

If you set a budget do realise that its very easy to exceed that by 100% without really trying.

D

Ah I see, so does the 500 gearbox not require the engineering to the crown wheel but still requires the aftermarket differential? I had a look at Sadev and Quaife gearboxes, quite expensive but sequential straight cuts do sound good so it's something to consider

I've never done anything like this so that's why I ended up starting with the engine. I decided to start off with that because it made sense since I was looking at the cc boundaries in the championships and I was allowed up to 1400cc in my chosen one.

Thanks to all of your help though, I know a lot more now so I'm looking into all of these other options that I didn't know about before.

I'll be sure to look into some different wheels but definitely 13s. I think the Panda mk3 diesel disc brakes will be easy enough to get for the fronts so that's a safe bet.

I just have to do the build rather than the actual championship, but I can see why it would rack up so much more money if you keep breaking parts. Replacing cvs and tyres constantly will put up the prices during the races quite significantly! I need to focus on the build though, so I'm going to look into all these other areas. Now I know what engine I want, I'm looking at what needs to go with it i.e. inlet, ECU, wiring, and then all the other bits such as suspension, brakes, wheels and tyres. In no particular order, as I can order everything at the end for the write up with the build

Take a look at the quaife group buy thread on this forum

Why the mk1 inlet if you are using an aftermarket ecu? haltech elite, ecu master black, emerald k6+ etc

check the eper link in the menu

This was what I was hinting earlier. Its an age thing. Tyres are everything with a race/rally car. You need to be competitive with engine power but it should always be the last on the list when building a car. Tyres, brakes, suspension, drivetrain ,engine.

The uno brakes won't fit under 13's in a panda due to the upright clearance sadly

I found this thread here for the Quaife differential: https://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/419542-quaife-lsd-group-buy-interest.html

An aftermarket ECU is easy to find but a custom inlet may not be as easy, unless it really is as simple as getting some throttle bodies like you did?

If that's a good way then I can consider that, if not I could stick to the mk1 electronics as well as the inlet.

I'll be sure to check eper and get prices when I do the build list and price list!

Perhaps not an age thing as such, but more of an experience thing? Two people that have built several rally cars between them versus a 17 year old who has only changed wheels on a rally car doing a college project

I'm taking all that into consideration now and looking into options for everything else. I think this project is coming along quite nicely now. The brakes and engine are sorted, but I need to get a bit more on suspension, gearbox and I need to decide which inlet/ECU combination to use. But I have options there so it's just a matter of choosing and justifying it. I'll make a little list below so I can consolidate what I've got.

Summary so far:
Car: Fiat Panda Classic
Engine: mk2 Punto 1368cc 16v
Inlet: mk1 Punto 1242 or custom throttle bodies
ECU: mk1 Punto 1242 or aftermarket ECU
Wiring: mk1 Punto 1242 or custom/aftermarket
Gearbox: Fiat 500 6 speed with Quaife differential?
Brakes (front): Fiat Panda mk3 diesel discs and calipers
Brakes (rear): Fiat Panda mk2 front discs and calipers
Suspension: ??? (custom/contact company)
Wheels: 13 inch, possibly compomotive
Tyres: Decided once exact wheels are chosen

So still to be decided: inlet, ECU, wiring, gearbox
Still to be looked at properly: suspension, wheels, tyres

Wheels and tyres should be easy enough but if anyone has more on suspension or the gearbox then that would be helpful. I might contact a company I know to ask about the suspension, and as for the gearbox I do have the option of the 500 gearbox but there is the sequential there as well.

Cheers
Owen

 

[panda-sport]

Ah I see, so does the 500 gearbox not require the engineering to the crown wheel but still requires the aftermarket differential?

Yes

An aftermarket ECU is easy to find but a custom inlet may not be as easy, unless it really is as simple as getting some throttle bodies like you did?

if you are using an aftermarket ecu you can use whatever mainifold your engine comes with esp if using the ecu's I mentioned (they all have an extra feature that may be of use)

Perhaps not an age thing as such, but more of an experience thing? Two people that have built several rally cars between them versus a 17 year old who has only changed wheels on a rally car doing a college project

You would hope

I'm taking all that into consideration now and looking into options for everything else. I think this project is coming along quite nicely now. The brakes and engine are sorted, but I need to get a bit more on suspension, gearbox and I need to decide which inlet/ECU combination to use. But I have options there so it's just a matter of choosing and justifying it. I'll make a little list below so I can consolidate what I've got.

Summary so far:
Car: Fiat Panda Classic
Engine: mk2 Punto 1368cc 16v

or panda 100hp, bravo, 500, punto mk3, palio, stilo etc

Inlet: mk1 Punto 1242 or custom throttle bodies
ECU: mk1 Punto 1242 or aftermarket ECU

see above

Wiring: mk1 Punto 1242 or custom/aftermarket
Gearbox: Fiat 500 6 speed with Quaife differential?

any fiat gearbox of the right type with a bolt on crown wheel, but with engineering facilities the push fit crown wheels could be adapted.

Brakes (front): Fiat Panda mk3 diesel discs and calipers

only the discs will fit under 13 inch wheels. I'd run standard brakes with uprated pads and fluid to start with in a rally car, it worked for Carlos Sainz (look up seat panda rally championship).

Brakes (rear): Fiat Panda mk2 front discs and calipers

what about a handbrake, my circuit racer hasn't got one - extra wieght

Suspension: ??? (custom/contact company)

leda have made some for si and there is a least one other company making race suspension for the Pandas.

Wheels: 13 inch, possibly compomotive
Tyres: Decided once exact wheels are chosen

tyres then wheels, a demon tweeks catalog tyre section should steer you in the right direction

 

[panda-sport]

http://en.intraxracing.nl/merken/fiat/panda-141-(4x4)/rsa/

 

[FDNY21]

if you are using an aftermarket ecu you can use whatever mainifold your engine comes with esp if using the ecu's I mentioned (they all have an extra feature that may be of use)

or panda 100hp, bravo, 500, punto mk3, palio, stilo etc

any fiat gearbox of the right type with a bolt on crown wheel, but with engineering facilities the push fit crown wheels could be adapted.

only the discs will fit under 13 inch wheels. I'd run standard brakes with uprated pads and fluid to start with in a rally car, it worked for Carlos Sainz (look up seat panda rally championship).

what about a handbrake, my circuit racer hasn't got one - extra wieght
leda have made some for si and there is a least one other company making race suspension for the Pandas.
tyres then wheels, a demon tweeks catalog tyre section should steer you in the right direction

I'm silly, of course you can use the mk2 Punto (or what ever other car) inlet with an aftermarket ECU. Oops

I take it the 500 gearbox will have a bolt on the crown wheel then, thanks!

Are you saying to run the standard Panda brakes? Front disc and caliper with uprated pads and the rear drum, all with uprated fluid?

Handbrake wise, don't the rally drivers usually opt for something hydraulic to flick the rear end with? Need to look into one of those then

Thanks again for all the info, and for the PM as well. I'm away for this weekend from tonight so this project will be put to bed for a few days but when I'm back I'll need to finish up on the brakes/suspension and bring everything together to record what I've got in the project so far!

 

[panda-sport]

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/histo/artikel/d/2013/12/27/carlos-sainz-seat-panda-45-gruppe-2/

http://www.autopista.es/clasicos/articulo/seat-panda-grupo-2-rallyes-97732

http://www.autohebdosport.es/club-d...seat-panda-de-carlos-sainz-en-el-rallye-racc/

http://www.marberra.de/HistorieMarbellaTerra/HistorieMarbella.html

 

[FDNY21]

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/histo/artikel/d/2013/12/27/carlos-sainz-seat-panda-45-gruppe-2/

http://www.autopista.es/clasicos/articulo/seat-panda-grupo-2-rallyes-97732

http://www.autohebdosport.es/club-d...seat-panda-de-carlos-sainz-en-el-rallye-racc/

http://www.marberra.de/HistorieMarbellaTerra/HistorieMarbella.html

The brakes really were unchanged with discs on the front and drums on the rear then! I may have to stick with that to start with.

Thanks again for the links, plenty of photos there too, I searched pictures of this one before and it's definitely one to stick in the college write up

There's also a presentation at the end so pictures will definitely help with that. It's basically a presentation showing what we did and how we justified it in the project, to the rest of the group, a lecturer and a mystery guest

 

[rallycinq]

Handbrake wise, don't the rally drivers usually opt for something hydraulic to flick the rear end with? Need to look into one of those then

Adding a hydraulic handbrake can be done. It can be done with drums or discs. In a car as light as the Panda discs are going to be overkill (says the man with discs on the back of his Cinq). New drums with good quality shoes will be adequate.

However, to make sense it really needs the fitting of a pedal box, which I haven't seen mentioned in your previous posts.

MSA/CAU regs require a cable as well as the hydraulics, so if no pedal box then a twin master cylinder handbrake required.

D

 

[FDNY21]

Adding a hydraulic handbrake can be done. It can be done with drums or discs. In a car as light as the Panda discs are going to be overkill (says the man with discs on the back of his Cinq). New drums with good quality shoes will be adequate.

However, to make sense it really needs the fitting of a pedal box, which I haven't seen mentioned in your previous posts.

MSA/CAU regs require a cable as well as the hydraulics, so if no pedal box then a twin master cylinder handbrake required.

D

I'll stick to the standard brakes but with new/good quality shoes and pads.

In all honesty, I haven't considered a pedal box before. I looked it up and this one shows up, so apparently it gives better throttle response and it's a separate control unit for the pedals. Is this the sort of thing that would allow a cable to be used as well as hydraulics? Link: http://www.pedalbox.com/en/home/

They make one that is suited to the 1368cc Punto so it will work work the engine in the Panda, considering the throttle cable etc will be carried across

 

[rallycinq]

I'll stick to the standard brakes but with new/good quality shoes and pads.

In all honesty, I haven't considered a pedal box before. I looked it up and this one shows up, so apparently it gives better throttle response and it's a separate control unit for the pedals. Is this the sort of thing that would allow a cable to be used as well as hydraulics? Link: http://www.pedalbox.com/en/home/

They make one that is suited to the 1368cc Punto so it will work work the engine in the Panda, considering the throttle cable etc will be carried across

You are on the wrong track completely.

I am referring to a brake pedal box with twin master cylinders and a balance bar.

D