What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[s130]

The government bodies and industry failed completely to get it right first time for various reasons, some technical, some social, as noted here. We do need a better

And a classic case in point was the roll-out of the electricians Part P qualification and the new wiring colours and certificate/inspection for electrical wiring changes.

If we accept that there were rouge and unsafe so called electricians out there and unsafe installations were being done the you can see/understand the move to tighten up the industry and pull it in line with the old Corgi and now Gas Safe requirements.

What follows is how crazy this got.

Before I retired when these new regs came out i was a Chartered Electrical Engineer and a member of the relevant Professional Institutions. For those not familiar with what my then status meant then in short I was fully qualified to work on public, safety critical electrical systems, design them, install them and able to be a "expert witness" in court cases.

So with the new Part P regs I was effectively barred from doing any "new" domestic installations and even worse still changing the wiring of an existing installation in "wet" rooms. Wet rooms being kitchens, bathrooms etc. Technically not allowed to change a ceiling, fit a new bathroom shaver lamp etc. EVEN in our own homes. Now *many* of us got really pissed off with this as you can imagine.

Now the classic of classic F-ups that is still exploited today.

New installations require the new wiring colours. However when the regs changed there was plenty of the old wiring in stock around the UK. So the cowboys bought as much old stock as they could to allow them to carry on doing new electrical installations in homes/extensions and as the wiring was in the old colours then they could dodge the Part P requirements etc.

I understand that to this day there are cowboys out there still using old wiring stock and skirting round Part P and Joe public who don't really know/understand about Part P like they do with Corgi / Gas Safe.

Another classic/great fowl up.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well you may be on for a new Gas Meter before you expected if you make frequent meter readings.

The the earlier smart gas meters have an internal battery. Apparently customers were more familiar with directly reading the meter than using the smart internal display unit so they went outside and push the gad meter button to scroll though the displays. This resulted in a dead battery before the normal expected time. Needless to say the battery is non replaceable and a new meter has to be fitted.

Don't know abou the more recent ones.

Now isn't that interesting. I've been manually reading our meter (pressing that red button on it) for about 18 months - roughly once a month - Probably be needing a new meter soon then?

Can I look forward to the new one working with multiple different providers or will I just have to resign myself to it stopping working the first time we change provider?

 

[s130]

Now isn't that interesting. I've been manually reading our meter (pressing that red button on it) for about 18 months - roughly once a month - Probably be needing a new meter soon then?

Can I look forward to the new one working with multiple different providers or will I just have to resign myself to it stopping working the first time we change provider?

Well to be honest I have no idea. As told/described to me then the internal battery is basically in a pseudo sleep mode just keeping count of units. It is when it is remotely read or woken up by human fingers that the real energy consumption occurs. I gather for a remote read this is just a "blink" of activity compared to the button pressing scenario.

Needles to say regarding meter battery life and human button pushing is what I was told about by the meter fitter (who seemed quite knowledgeable AFTER I engaged him technical knowledge with my Chartered Electrical Engineer status). I suspect 99.99% of his jobs were just mundane "tails" and meter sopping and just praying for a trouble free day and return to home as lowly stressed as possible.

 

[portland_bill]

My only knowledge of smart meters is experience of my father's, and what I've read on sites such as moneysavingexpert, and the financial column in Radio Times (yes really).

As I understand it.
The first meters were 'phase1' (may be called something similar) and would only communicate with the original provider. Any change in supplier meant it went dumb, working as a conventional meter. It would have to be replaced if the new supplier wanted one.
Then came 'phase2' (Or whatever). These are supposed to be transferrable to other suppliers, and work on a different communication protocol. These are the only type supposed to be fitted currently, although there are apparently rumours that some older ones are still being fitted. I'd guess take-up was less than planned?

But, the future, in fact quite near future I believe, will be a new infrastructure for these things to communicate via, and many phase2 won't work on that, but some are supposed to when switched over. So another meter change for many.

My father had a pair fitted in 2015, gas and electric. Bit of a bodge job, had to be redone by the inspector who called the next day and condemned it. From then, until we sold the house early this year, it was erratic in operation. The gas meter was at ceiling level, so needed a stepladder to read yourself. The silly monitoring device would lose communication with either or both meters usually daily, often not reconnecting for days. So much for monitoring your own usage. When it lost communication, after an hour or so it would start to squeak as an alarm. Never did find how to turn that off, so instead of treading on it, we took the battery out.

I keep getting invitations to make an appointment to have one fitted, I keep binning them. I can't see how a meter will help me save money. If I turn the heating down, I save money, and get cold. No point in warming a house instead of heating it. So it costs what it costs. With the electric, knowing the cost of turning a light on is irrelevant. Without it I can't see. A lower energy bulb will tease. You can see to move about, but you can't read, or do anything important. So the bulb is chosen for its purpose, and that'll be its cost.

And overnight, the nightlights will remain. A black cat sleeping at the top of the stairs necessitates a light to avoid falling and breaking my neck. (The cat's afraid of the dark, so appreciates them too.)

 

[varesecrazy]

Funnily we had a lengthy discussion regarding these over xmas evening.

Views were mixed.. people who have

Hive..Amazon echo. Facebook see no downside

Others were afraid of 'big brother'

Personally ..not going to sign up

Its not like a water meter .. where you have potential to save a reasonable sum

You are already being metered .. nothing is changing.. other that your control of it

 

[Schumi2001]

Water meters... yes, with just 2 of us in the house, we could potentially save a good chunk of cash.

On the other hand, I don't want to be thinking about how much it's costing me every time I wash a car.

 

[portland_bill]

I've had a water meter for many years, never once considered my water usage, or tried to reduce shower time to save water.
The water company produces a quantity of water, at a cost per litre. This is used to set a charge, either per litre, or a rateable value based on the house rates. You could be in a large house, using little water, paying a lot for it, or a small house, using a lot of water, and being subsidised by others. A meter ensures you pay for what you use. Then the losses in the system are subsidised more by those not on a meter, as price per litre is monitored by OFWAT. As more people get meters, losses in the system become more of a burden on the water supplier, and becomes an incentive for them to stem the leaks. Or they can assume those still on the rates system are using it all, so thier charges increase. When we first got a meter, our water bills reduced. When I got a pressure washer, they increased noticeably, it gets used less often now. Car wash by bucket, pressure twice a year under the arches.

There is a lad across the road, with a mate apparently making a business from car cleaning. Every car gets a thorough wash, using foam and the pressure washer, and very nice they all look afterwards. I hope they're setting aside some funds for when their dad gets the next water bill, as they are on a meter. Could be a bit of a shock.

 

[varesecrazy]

Just after our 1st 9 months on a watermeter
We had a basic cheap hose set up for some landscape work..


Had a text from a neighbour.. they could hear water running.

Gave them a call.. it transpired they had heard it the night before too.

Son popped over and sorted it..

Complained to supplier of hose.. as it had failed internally.

I explained.. and requested £30

For water..and boys fuel. They were fine about it

Months went by..and I completed another

reading of the meter.. bill was +£150..!!

Rang them to discuss this..as @45% of the bill is water at the tap..
sewage treatment is another 50%

As I explained it went straight onto the garden..in July.

Very little wouldve entered the drains...
No sewage treatment required

'It doesnt work like that'

Now a little wary

 

[portland_bill]

It can work like that, but needs a special deal, not an ad-hoc issue.

The bowls club is not on mains drains, so we have no sewage charges. There is a small charge for surface water run-off. Most of the water use is for watering the green, so all of it evaporates, or drains through. We did a few years ago investigate mains drainage, and would have had to have two meters, one for the clubhouse, and another for the watering system, so that the sewage charge would be appropriate.

 

[Eklipze3k]

Resurrecting the smart energy meter debate as I've been off of here for a few days.

Phase 1 (SMETS1) meters used a mobile network for connectivity, and were individually owned and operated by the providers, so they went dumb if you changed providers.
Phase 2 (SMETS2) meters are provided by the CSP (Communication Service Provider) for the region, as they use the CSPs network they remain Smart when you switch provider.

I can only speak for the North region as that's the area my company is responsible for, but for all regions there are 4 devices:
Comms hub - the part that speaks to the network, and is connected wirelessly to the
ESME - Electric Smart Meter Equipment
GSME - Gas Smart Meter Equipment
IHD - In Home Display

For our region, these devices communicate with each other via the Zigbee protocol, this was chosen as there are very few other consumer devices using it meaning the likelihood of interference from other devices (unlike WiFi) is unlikely.
The Comms Hub speaks to our infrastructure via another proprietary protocol jointly developed with Sensus who have masses of experience in the Smart Metering game from the US. Our infrastructure is then connected back into our network through a mix of mobile and fixed broadband solutions, the advantage of this being that - even if the connection back to the network is lost - the smart meters can still provide their reads to the mast, and these will be sent into the network as soon as comms is restored.

As I understand it, the Central and South regions are run by Téléfonica whose solution is purely mobile network based, so if the network is down they're boned. I could be wrong though, I don't even know all the details about our own network (it's remarkably complicated with redundancies) so I'm not going to know all the details of theirs.

I can also tell you that our Comms Hubs have been designed to have the potential for a lot more functionality to be unlocked in the future, what exactly this functionality will mean for the consumer I don't know, but the providers are excited for it. Whatever this new functionality is, it will not mean a change in infrastructure for the North region as we built our network specifically for this service, but again I can't speak for South/Central as it could be that the mobile network has been deemed "not fit for purpose" for future functionality.

If you have any questions tag or PM me and I'll try my best to answer them.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If you have any questions tag or PM me and I'll try my best to answer them.

Thanks very much for all that info, I found it very interesting. Well here I must display my ignorance again, Don't know what a TAG is? but I have done a couple of PMs. (learned how to on this site!) Trouble is I keep forgetting to wake up the bit of the site which displays if I've been PM'd by anyone else!

Having the display in the living room was handy for taking the gas readings when it was raining as the meter is on the outside wall but the electricity meter is under the stairs and no bother at all to read. As mentioned by someone else (was it you PB?) being able to monitor our consumption in real time didn't really affect anything as we were already very careful with use. My daughter and her kids are terrible at just turning all the lights in the house on and leaving multiple chargers permanently plugged in when they come to stay. I tried showing them the effect using the living room display but it was an utter waste of time. Now the display has ceased to work we really don't miss it and I'd be very happy with a mechanical "dumb" meter. Don't suppose I could get my old one reinstalled?

Anyway, what I'd like to ask is whether you know anything about the system we will be on up here in Edinburgh? Also, if our existing meter's battery goes flat so I can't obtain readings what should I do? I see it has written on it's casing "Libra 310p" and, lower down, "use only battery L-G90-10929" which might mean the battery can be renewed?

As a parting shot I'd just like to say that I think the way the energy market is organized is shameful. I'm lucky, I have a wife who is financially very aware - much more so than I - and she does a marvelous job of looking after our meager resources. As a result we benefit considerably from the way things are set up at this time, she's always on her iPad seeking out deals etc. and "harassing" providers for better deals. However we both have regular contact with people who are a lot less "savvy" than us - Me through my contacts with learning disability where I spent the last 15 years of my working life and still keep in touch and my wife through her involvement in dementia - Of course you would not expect people directly affected by these conditions to be able or have the time to cope with these matters and, I'm glad to say there is help, often from knowledgeable amateurs, they can access. However there are many others around the fringes who, often due to age but also just being less well equipped by their life experience, to avail themselves. It's high time that all these "special deals" were done away with and a simple scheme of standard, affordable charges introduced for all. I've no doubt we would probably pay more then but my consience would be clear as I can't believe that some people are not being overcharged to pay for the likes of us to benefit from these cheaper deals!

 

[Eklipze3k]

Thanks very much for all that info, I found it very interesting. Well here I must display my ignorance again, Don't know what a TAG is? but I have done a couple of PMs. (learned how to on this site!) Trouble is I keep forgetting to wake up the bit of the site which displays if I've been PM'd by anyone else!

To tag someone, use the @ symbol and then type their name eg. Pugglt Auld Jock. You should get a notification that I've tagged you

Anyway, what I'd like to ask is whether you know anything about the system we will be on up here in Edinburgh? Also, if our existing meter's battery goes flat so I can't obtain readings what should I do? I see it has written on it's casing "Libra 310p" and, lower down, "use only battery L-G90-10929" which might mean the battery can be renewed?

As we only provide the comms hubs, I'm not sure about the ESME/GSME side of things, but surely if you have the comms hub then you shouldn't need to be taking manual readings as that's kind of the whole point as far as consumers are concerned? The ESME/GSME are bought by the provider (British Gas, etc) so you'd need to speak to them if the battery is flat as this will also prevent it from talking to the Comms Hub.

As a parting shot I'd just like to say that I think the way the energy market is organized is shameful. I'm lucky, I have a wife who is financially very aware - much more so than I - and she does a marvelous job of looking after our meager resources. As a result we benefit considerably from the way things are set up at this time, she's always on her iPad seeking out deals etc. and "harassing" providers for better deals. However we both have regular contact with people who are a lot less "savvy" than us - Me through my contacts with learning disability where I spent the last 15 years of my working life and still keep in touch and my wife through her involvement in dementia - Of course you would not expect people directly affected by these conditions to be able or have the time to cope with these matters and, I'm glad to say there is help, often from knowledgeable amateurs, they can access. However there are many others around the fringes who, often due to age but also just being less well equipped by their life experience, to avail themselves. It's high time that all these "special deals" were done away with and a simple scheme of standard, affordable charges introduced for all. I've no doubt we would probably pay more then but my conscience would be clear as I can't believe that some people are not being overcharged to pay for the likes of us to benefit from these cheaper deals!

So, re-nationalisation basically? That's the only real way you can remove the 'competition' which causes people to have to do this.

 

[Schumi2001]

There are some things which should never be in the hands of shareholders / private investment. And certainly shouldn't be majority held by foreign governments via their nationalised industries investing in ours!

Gas, electric, wired telecoms, water. I'd also make a case for public transport, too, so it can be properly integrated.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As we only provide the comms hubs, I'm not sure about the ESME/GSME side of things, but surely if you have the comms hub then you shouldn't need to be taking manual readings as that's kind of the whole point as far as consumers are concerned? The ESME/GSME are bought by the provider (British Gas, etc) so you'd need to speak to them if the battery is flat as this will also prevent it from talking to the Comms Hub.

ESME? that was my first serious girlfriend's name - My mother found me (in my late teens) weeping over the kitchen table when she announced her father had decided they were to emigrate to Australia (as you did in the '60's).

Regarding this comms hub (didn't know it was called that by the way) It did continue to work for a while after the meter stopped being a "smart" meter when we changed supplier but then it too failed so I now have to go out and push the button to get a reading.

I'm very grateful to you for all this info, I feel much better informed now.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Well what do you know? I just came across a pdf for my gas meter!

https://www.landisgyr.eu/webfoo/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Libra_310_overview.pdf

Does that leave you any the wiser?

 

[StevenRB45]

My delightful boy emptied a bottle into his crotch in his car seat.

It stayed in his seat...win! Otherwise a large amount of lose. It is designed to come apart to wash it great, but you have to remove and refit the seat belts and harness.

This has taken 3 attempts and it was only on refitting it to the car in the dark I realised that attempt 2 had left a slight twist in one of the straps and it needed to come back out and be re-done.

All sorted now and back into the car..I could not cope with a none isofix seat...the second guessing of have I routed this belt correctly e.t.c.

I suppose at least I was quite heartened on taking seat to pieces to spot things like energy absorbing material in the headrest, the last one was just a plastic shell.

 

[portland_bill]

My weekly trip to Chippenham to check up on an old uncle. Took minor A and B roads. What is it with all these Fiat 500s going slowly? Five of them total on the round trip, all going so slowly.

Final one, paying so little attention stopped behind a parked car, thinking it was a queue. The atationary car, with a driver, and lights on, was a little out from the kerb, but not moving and visible to us from over 100 yards away, so plenty of time to assess. If you look ahead. 500 stopped behind it, as did the car following her. Both surprised as I trundled gently past all three of them.

 

[Schumi2001]

Mostly driven by young orange girls with bleached hair who are more interested in their Instagram followers than driving... probably Instagramming whilst driving, too!

 

[varesecrazy]

Mostly driven by young orange girls with bleached hair who are more interested in their Instagram followers than driving... probably Instagramming whilst driving, too!

Thats just your.. ( and my ) postcode

 

[Schumi2001]

On the subject of inept driving.

We drove from Ystrad Mynach to Mountain Ash this evening to take part in the Non Galan road race.

On the way, we got stuck behind a supermini of some kind. Can't remember what it was... but it was being driven at 30mph or less by a young girl with her nose stuck to the windscreen, seemingly steering it with her Bristol Cities, with one headlamp out.

We managed to pass her at the first opportunity (not easy on an unlit road) - I really couldn't believe what I was seeing as we passed her.

Mind you, I increasingly see accidents and just think 'how the hell did they manage that?' - including the driver who somehow managed to hit a lamp-post and kill themselves on a straight dual carriageway, with a 40mph limit, in near perfect driving conditions!