I appears as though the clutch master cylinder piston is sticking in the bore of the cylinder and not retracting fully.
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Technical Uneven Clutch
OP
OP
Is there any way to grease that? I tried WD40 on the end of the rod but nothing changed.
What about the clutch pump? Could there be a problem with it and after several pushes not being able to supply enough pressure in the liquid for the rod to be up?
What about the clutch pump? Could there be a problem with it and after several pushes not being able to supply enough pressure in the liquid for the rod to be up?
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I've never used the term "clutch pump" but I suspect it means the same as master cylinder. For clarity, the master cylinder is at the pedal end and the slave cylinder is at the gearbox end.
If the master cylinder piston is sticking, you would need to get some lubricant into the bore of the cylinder. I wouldn't use WD40 in there.
You can get a special brake grease. To apply it, you would need to pull back the rubber dust seal that goes around the push rod into the master cylinder and smear grease into the bore while holding the pedal down. Perhaps a silicone oil spray would be suitable. It would certainly be easier to apply.
If the master cylinder piston is sticking, you would need to get some lubricant into the bore of the cylinder. I wouldn't use WD40 in there.
You can get a special brake grease. To apply it, you would need to pull back the rubber dust seal that goes around the push rod into the master cylinder and smear grease into the bore while holding the pedal down. Perhaps a silicone oil spray would be suitable. It would certainly be easier to apply.
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OP
OP
Thanks, I'll try that and post the results. 
It certainly looks like something is physically preventing the pedal from getting up to the top of its travel. Are you sure there's nothing interfering with the the arm of the pedal much higher up. Have you removed the sound deadening panel above where your feet would be?
There's no return spring for the clutch pedal, the only spring being the clutch itself pushing back the hydraulics back up to the pedal which is fine as long as there's no resistance on the way and the hydraulics don't have a problem with air in the system. But if there's something physically interfering ( as I had) then it just won't work properly and unless the pedal gets fully up then it doesn't get a new refill of hydraulic fluid from the reservoir and the bite just goes lower and lower
I see from your clutch pedal rubber that there's a lot of side force going on when you are using the clutch, that's quite normal but it's surprising how the pedal can bend sideways with time so I'd double check if it's rubbing against the side of the pedal mount
You could quite simply attach a return spring to the pedal arm if it's really getting on our nerves, that will make sure it gets to the top of its travel every time
Every Stilo clutch model has a different design so it's difficult to compare but if I put my clutch in and purposely slide off the pedal then it slams up with a clang as it shoots back up to the top of its travel. That obviously isn't happening with yours
There's no return spring for the clutch pedal, the only spring being the clutch itself pushing back the hydraulics back up to the pedal which is fine as long as there's no resistance on the way and the hydraulics don't have a problem with air in the system. But if there's something physically interfering ( as I had) then it just won't work properly and unless the pedal gets fully up then it doesn't get a new refill of hydraulic fluid from the reservoir and the bite just goes lower and lower
I see from your clutch pedal rubber that there's a lot of side force going on when you are using the clutch, that's quite normal but it's surprising how the pedal can bend sideways with time so I'd double check if it's rubbing against the side of the pedal mount
You could quite simply attach a return spring to the pedal arm if it's really getting on our nerves, that will make sure it gets to the top of its travel every time
Every Stilo clutch model has a different design so it's difficult to compare but if I put my clutch in and purposely slide off the pedal then it slams up with a clang as it shoots back up to the top of its travel. That obviously isn't happening with yours
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OP
OP
In the part I was taking the pictures, I was actually pushing the pedal with one finger to the point it was on the edge of the master cylinder. That's how I got those numbers.
If I don't want to push it, it would go fully up but have the effects in the middle of the video, the dead course in second 30. Sure, I did check to see whether something is blocking it but the plastic thing is about 1 cm away from where the the pedal is in every position.
Also, when this happens, I can see the rod move inside the master cylinder but not moving anything up to a point, but that can be explained with your post above.
What if you are in heavy traffic and you need to raise the pedal half way, then back down, for about 50 times? Id does have the same effect, doesn't it? Cause I do that daily. Only thing is the other Stilo is fine, doesn't have this problem.
I did what Dave suggested, pressed the pedal fully down and sprayed some grease inside then put some more on the top until it was full. Will post results tomorrow but I don't think it's gonna help. If it doesn't, first thing I do is to remove all the plastic stuff around the pedals.
I did notice something weird though. The carpet itself was rubbing against the rod. Cut the damn thing away and there was a lot of wear on the piece I removed. But I guess this should have made a difference earlier, not 9 years later.
If I don't want to push it, it would go fully up but have the effects in the middle of the video, the dead course in second 30. Sure, I did check to see whether something is blocking it but the plastic thing is about 1 cm away from where the the pedal is in every position.
Also, when this happens, I can see the rod move inside the master cylinder but not moving anything up to a point, but that can be explained with your post above.
What if you are in heavy traffic and you need to raise the pedal half way, then back down, for about 50 times? Id does have the same effect, doesn't it? Cause I do that daily. Only thing is the other Stilo is fine, doesn't have this problem.
I did what Dave suggested, pressed the pedal fully down and sprayed some grease inside then put some more on the top until it was full. Will post results tomorrow but I don't think it's gonna help. If it doesn't, first thing I do is to remove all the plastic stuff around the pedals.
I did notice something weird though. The carpet itself was rubbing against the rod. Cut the damn thing away and there was a lot of wear on the piece I removed. But I guess this should have made a difference earlier, not 9 years later.
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I think you might still have old fluid in the clutch hydraulic lines. I know you had the brake fluid changed and they share the same reservoir but all they often do is open the brake caliper bleed screws and pour new fluid in the reservoir and the clutch doesn't get touched so all the old fluid, contaminents and corrosion just stays there.
"There you go sir, we've changed your brake fluid"
Very good but what about the fluid in the clutch system?
That's why it's the slave cylinders that always get problems before the master cylinders. Slave cylinders are at the bottom of the systems and collect all the rubbish so they have a tough life
One of the problems with old fluid is that it compresses as it gets hot with contaminents in the fluid. Use the clutch a lot without getting the pedal fully up to recharge it with fluid, with a hot engine in traffic jams heating up the fluid as well as temp rise purely due to the constant pressure in the fluid and the fluid compresses and lowers the bite point.
Once you get on the move again with less clutch work then everything cools again and goes back to normal
"There you go sir, we've changed your brake fluid"
Very good but what about the fluid in the clutch system?
That's why it's the slave cylinders that always get problems before the master cylinders. Slave cylinders are at the bottom of the systems and collect all the rubbish so they have a tough life
One of the problems with old fluid is that it compresses as it gets hot with contaminents in the fluid. Use the clutch a lot without getting the pedal fully up to recharge it with fluid, with a hot engine in traffic jams heating up the fluid as well as temp rise purely due to the constant pressure in the fluid and the fluid compresses and lowers the bite point.
Once you get on the move again with less clutch work then everything cools again and goes back to normal
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OP
OP
What you explained above pretty much matches what I am experiencing word by word. It's like you've dreamed about all the symptoms and just laid them on the table.
So basically I can confirm the following:
a. when I took the car to the dealers I had the luck of the car being on the elevator right next to the window of the lounge I was in. I looked at the car 80% of the time it was there, and all they did was to take a large device (don't know what it was) and pulled the liquid out from each of the calipers.
I know where the slave cylinder is because I found the end of the hose that goes into it but it was out of reach so I stood there and waited to see if they do something with it. They neither removed the battery cover nor worked underneath the car to bleed anything so you are right. All they did under the car was to look for leaks and everything took 20 seconds.
b. I can also confirm that I can almost never successfully mimic the clutch issue with the engine cold and turned off. I pressed it more than 500 times once just to see if it does something and it only did half of what normally happens. Moreover, if I drive aggressive, the problem happens much faster, even after 30 presses, even if I don't really use the clutch much and when I let it go up completely. I refused to think it had something to do with heat until now.
So basically I'm at least happy I'm almost at the bottom of the issue. I am going to go in my home town when I get a chance and go to my father's mechanic (the one that takes care of the other Stilo), and tell him to do whatever we decide here.
I gave him a call and he said "it's the clutch pump" that's why I was telling Dave I thought it was that and not the master cylinder.
Should I change both master and slave cylinders, plus removing all liquid again, throwing it away because it is contaminated, again, and putting new one in all the system? The bastards here charged me for 1.5 hours of labor for nothing.
Oh, I forgot to mention that all the lube I put in the hole where the pedal rod meets the master cylinder had no effect whatsoever. I'm pretty sure I lubed the heck out of it. Half a can of the stuff got in.
So basically I can confirm the following:
a. when I took the car to the dealers I had the luck of the car being on the elevator right next to the window of the lounge I was in. I looked at the car 80% of the time it was there, and all they did was to take a large device (don't know what it was) and pulled the liquid out from each of the calipers.
I know where the slave cylinder is because I found the end of the hose that goes into it but it was out of reach so I stood there and waited to see if they do something with it. They neither removed the battery cover nor worked underneath the car to bleed anything so you are right. All they did under the car was to look for leaks and everything took 20 seconds.
b. I can also confirm that I can almost never successfully mimic the clutch issue with the engine cold and turned off. I pressed it more than 500 times once just to see if it does something and it only did half of what normally happens. Moreover, if I drive aggressive, the problem happens much faster, even after 30 presses, even if I don't really use the clutch much and when I let it go up completely. I refused to think it had something to do with heat until now.
So basically I'm at least happy I'm almost at the bottom of the issue. I am going to go in my home town when I get a chance and go to my father's mechanic (the one that takes care of the other Stilo), and tell him to do whatever we decide here.
I gave him a call and he said "it's the clutch pump" that's why I was telling Dave I thought it was that and not the master cylinder.
Should I change both master and slave cylinders, plus removing all liquid again, throwing it away because it is contaminated, again, and putting new one in all the system? The bastards here charged me for 1.5 hours of labor for nothing.
Oh, I forgot to mention that all the lube I put in the hole where the pedal rod meets the master cylinder had no effect whatsoever. I'm pretty sure I lubed the heck out of it. Half a can of the stuff got in.
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Hi Decks. Slightly off topic, but how can you do the full fluid change you mention (i.e. including slave) on the 2.4 engine, where the slave is inside the bell housing?
No, don't change the master or slave cylinder if there's nothing wrong with them, and the brake hydraulics will be ok as that's a separate system, just change the hyd fluid in the clutch system as best you can by simply bleeding the clutch hydraulics at the clutch slave cylinder, work it a bit and bleed again. It would be nice to get ALL the fluid out of the slave cylinder but that's not possible with a concentric slave cylinder in the clutch housing as you have but just do your best to get as much of the old stuff out as you can
It's really easy to do with a cheap one man pressure bleeding kit
In the same way as your brakes feel sharper and less spongy then the same can happen to your clutch with new fluid in there
Hi Phil
That's very much on topic, as above
Hyd fluid properties really start to go off fast above 70C
Fluid density,viscosity and bulk modulus. Some lovely formula here
http://www.daerospace.com/HydraulicSystems/HydraulicFluidProp.php
but you can see what happens to the stuff as temperature rises or it becomes contaminated
It's really easy to do with a cheap one man pressure bleeding kit
In the same way as your brakes feel sharper and less spongy then the same can happen to your clutch with new fluid in there
Hi Phil
That's very much on topic, as above
Hyd fluid properties really start to go off fast above 70C
Fluid density,viscosity and bulk modulus. Some lovely formula here
http://www.daerospace.com/HydraulicSystems/HydraulicFluidProp.php
but you can see what happens to the stuff as temperature rises or it becomes contaminated
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OP
OP
I don't understand why they said they bled the clutch as I explained my issue for a half an hour. I bet they didn't do anything or if they did, they just put 2 grams of fluid out, saw there was no air coming with it and that was it. The whole point was to remove the fluid from the system, not change some of it and take 50£.
If what you say is right, and I pretty much think so, and I save about 250£ by not replacing the cylinders, then I'm sending you and Dave a 6 pack to celebrate! :yum:
I will need to find a decent place where I can do this. I would try it myself, but its very well hidden and can't really see what I'm doing.
If what you say is right, and I pretty much think so, and I save about 250£ by not replacing the cylinders, then I'm sending you and Dave a 6 pack to celebrate! :yum:
I will need to find a decent place where I can do this. I would try it myself, but its very well hidden and can't really see what I'm doing.
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Well I hope it works for you.
You only need to get access to the spring clip at the slave cylinder, pull the clip up a little and then pull back the hose just 8mm or so (don't try to pull the hose completely out as it shows here) and it's ready to bleed through the nipple (might be a rubber dust cover on it too) but I can see that access is more difficult on a lh drive car
You only need to get access to the spring clip at the slave cylinder, pull the clip up a little and then pull back the hose just 8mm or so (don't try to pull the hose completely out as it shows here) and it's ready to bleed through the nipple (might be a rubber dust cover on it too) but I can see that access is more difficult on a lh drive car
I'll collect mine next time I'm in Bucharest.
Probably going there for another wedding in June.
OP
OP
I'm not sure how different it is on RHD cars, but I can't even see the bleed nipple on mine. Can only feel it somehow and its really down and can barely touch it with my fingers where it is.
Thank you for the schematics, I will have a look to see maybe I can somehow reach it. It is for LHD or RHD?
Dave, looking forward to that.
Thank you for the schematics, I will have a look to see maybe I can somehow reach it. It is for LHD or RHD?
Dave, looking forward to that.
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OP
OP
Hi,
Well the mechanic said that there's no way the hydraulic fluid would cause such a big gap in the clutch, but said that the clutch pump gaskets are shot (again clutch pump), so he tried to order one for me. The cost isn't that big, only 80 pounds or so, the problem is the fact that there are 3 available and all for the 1.8. He also told me that nobody sells them and I tend to think he's right because Eper is telling me that one of the 3 is suitable for me but when I click on it it says "product replaced".
The mechanic said that he has studied the schematics of all 3 and they all are the same expect for the fact that one of them has a larger hole (12mm diameter) where the hose goes in, and the others have a 10mm hole.
He also suggested I bring the car there and he will take the pump out and change the gaskets on it. I'm not really sure that's possible or convenient.
I can't phone the dealers and try to buy one because they would just give me the one they think fits and not be liable in case it doesn't because I don't indent to mount it at them.
So I'm going home on Friday, 500 km away from Bucharest, hoping I will get there in more than 1 gear. There's a high possibility I will have to leave my car there to be fixed, which is a huge bummer.
Do any of you know what diameter it is? Or maybe do any of you have the exact part number for it?
Cheers and a million thanks to everyone.
Well the mechanic said that there's no way the hydraulic fluid would cause such a big gap in the clutch, but said that the clutch pump gaskets are shot (again clutch pump), so he tried to order one for me. The cost isn't that big, only 80 pounds or so, the problem is the fact that there are 3 available and all for the 1.8. He also told me that nobody sells them and I tend to think he's right because Eper is telling me that one of the 3 is suitable for me but when I click on it it says "product replaced".
The mechanic said that he has studied the schematics of all 3 and they all are the same expect for the fact that one of them has a larger hole (12mm diameter) where the hose goes in, and the others have a 10mm hole.
He also suggested I bring the car there and he will take the pump out and change the gaskets on it. I'm not really sure that's possible or convenient.
I can't phone the dealers and try to buy one because they would just give me the one they think fits and not be liable in case it doesn't because I don't indent to mount it at them.
So I'm going home on Friday, 500 km away from Bucharest, hoping I will get there in more than 1 gear.
There's a high possibility I will have to leave my car there to be fixed, which is a huge bummer.Do any of you know what diameter it is? Or maybe do any of you have the exact part number for it?
Cheers and a million thanks to everyone.
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I've deleted your VIN and ePER page because it also showed your VIN.
As you used your VIN in ePER, all the parts that are not for your car are crossed out. The only master cylinder (pump) that isn't crossed out is part number 46752399. It shows this as compatible with engine codes M1, M20, M40, and M50. Your 1.8 engine is code M20.
If you click on the part number (46752399), it shows the replacement part information. Part number 46752399 was replaced by part number 55224082 in 10/2003. There are no further part number changes for 55224082 so that is the cylinder for your car. Price about €45 +tax.
As you used your VIN in ePER, all the parts that are not for your car are crossed out. The only master cylinder (pump) that isn't crossed out is part number 46752399. It shows this as compatible with engine codes M1, M20, M40, and M50. Your 1.8 engine is code M20.
If you click on the part number (46752399), it shows the replacement part information. Part number 46752399 was replaced by part number 55224082 in 10/2003. There are no further part number changes for 55224082 so that is the cylinder for your car. Price about €45 +tax.
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OP
OP
Gents, I am proud to present.....
The faulty Master Cylinder.
This is what was kind of causing the clutch to be uneven.
The thing that I find wrong with it is the fact that I cannot blow air into the auxiliary pipe (the one in the middle of it) at all, in any position.
Could this mean that the clutch was sitting down but wasn't getting any fluid through the pipe, maybe even sending some of it away, thus causing the bite point to move?
He got me a SACHS master cylinder, any of you heard of this brand? Is it any good?
Clutch is working excellent now, can press it 1 million times and it is still up and smooth.
Cheers to all for all the support during these rough times..
The faulty Master Cylinder.
This is what was kind of causing the clutch to be uneven.
The thing that I find wrong with it is the fact that I cannot blow air into the auxiliary pipe (the one in the middle of it) at all, in any position.
Could this mean that the clutch was sitting down but wasn't getting any fluid through the pipe, maybe even sending some of it away, thus causing the bite point to move?
He got me a SACHS master cylinder, any of you heard of this brand? Is it any good?
Clutch is working excellent now, can press it 1 million times and it is still up and smooth.
Cheers to all for all the support during these rough times..
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Well that certainly sounds what's wrong with it. When the clutch pedal is fully up it should get a fresh recharge of fluid from the reservoir. If it's not getting that recharge then the pedal will go lower and lower as you experienced
Glad it's fixed
Glad it's fixed
OP
OP
I think it is clogged with debry and the guy just changed it. I will try to fix it just for fun.
The liquid inside of it is really black. I'm pretty sure it was never changed from 2002, causing them to fill up with nasty stuff. Why else would it be blocked?
The liquid inside of it is really black. I'm pretty sure it was never changed from 2002, causing them to fill up with nasty stuff. Why else would it be blocked?
bloodline_89
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im always stuck in traffic, i just know my cluth will go one day!
are stilo clutches a common problem?
are stilo clutches a common problem?
