Top gear: 80's hot hatches vs modern

[Boodajuda]

I had 2 Daihatsu Charade GTti's they were impressive, high revving by today's standard and good at 4 wheel drifts. At least 15 years ahead of its time.

Now everyone is raving about small efficient turbo'd engines!

 

[Gavv8]

I had 2 Daihatsu Charade GTti's they were impressive, high revving by today's standard and good at 4 wheel drifts. At least 15 years ahead of its time.

Now everyone is raving about small efficient turbo'd engines!

The Charade GTti was a fantastic little car and the critics and journalists loved it.

 

[Freebo]

You are kidding me! I would've thought even an abarth would have one

Nope. Got some foam filling rubbish. Had to buy a full size Abarth alloy with tyre of a friend as a spare.

 

[Honeymonster]

There was one atleast (extremely ugly) Jap hatchback that was pushing technology to the limits even by todays standards...

I give you the 89 Nissan Micra EK10 Super Turbo

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/HERITAGE/march_super_turbo.html

Supercharged and turbocharged with less than 1 of your Earth litres.

Now the Charade GTTI was quick, but this thing was just stupid.

Nearly 108bhp at under a litre weighing 740kg.

But damn it was ugly, even back then:



My favourite hot hatches are all turbocharged and I was very disapointed they didn't have a single one.

The MK1 R5 turbo was an absolute stunner and 70-90s unrefined turbos with cobbled together ignition/fueling are always a hoot to drive.

Give me sooooome laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag. :devil:

 

[andy.littler]

I've literally yesterday brought a mg maestro turbo as a restoration project. No driver aids and tiny wheels make for real good fun. Only 151 bp but 60 in 6.7 for 1989 that's awesome

 

[Gavv8]

I've literally yesterday brought a mg maestro turbo as a restoration project. No driver aids and tiny wheels make for real good fun. Only 151 bp but 60 in 6.7 for 1989 that's awesome

I had one of those in the early nineties and they can be made seriously fast but i'd strongly advise uprating the brakes and radiator as both are way too small, give a cosworth a run for its money on a good day.

 

[Honeymonster]

I've literally yesterday brought a mg maestro turbo as a restoration project. No driver aids and tiny wheels make for real good fun. Only 151 bp but 60 in 6.7 for 1989 that's awesome

You should do a thread on this in the non Fiat members motors section.

 

[andy.littler]

Might do that as I sort it out.
Been in a unit for last 10 yrs so actually in good nick for 25 years old.
Receipts for fully recon engine and turbo before was parked so fingers crossed can get her to run easy enough.
Will do a proper thread in 5 weeks when can get to fetch her
Only 78 out of the 505 made by tickFord left too

 

[maggers]

Have fun dude, they were right torque steer monsters! Good fun though.

 

[The Beard]

One of the problems with "modern" hot hatches is definitely weight. Unfortunately much of this has been forced on the industry by EU (and others) safety requirements. One of the reasons the latest Panda has grown was reported as being necessary to give a little more room for crush zones. Even then, if you bear in mind the fact that my MJ weighs a ton, look back at the weight I gave for the Chevette HS 2300 in the late '70s/early '80s and it wasn't much more. Admittedly the Chevette was given as a Dry Weight.

But then a lot of those kind of vehicles were sold in a soft state of tune, probably in pursuit of reliablility.

The car was sold with twin Stromberg CD175s and put out 135 bhp. Mine ended up with twin Weber 40 DCOEs (I think), ported inlet manifold, gas flowed head, fast road cams and free flow exhaust manifold. After all that it gave 205 bhp on a dynamometer. It pulled cleanly from about 1200 revs up to its then red line of 6200 revs.

The Escort Mexico was an even better example of the tunable cheap-ish car. Its interior was basically an 1100L but with a 1.6 Kent cross-flow engine. It's sole raison d'etre was to be modified with tuned engine, reinforced turrets, strut braces, new springs and shocks. It even came with steel wheels and chrome hub caps. In fact a friend of mine bought one with scrapes down the side and ended up having the stripes taken off before it was resprayed and 1100L badges on sides and boot.

Start with a light car with a tunable engine and you can upgrade it as and when you can afford to.....and afford the insurance.

 

[andy.littler]

Insurance is what killed of most these hot hatch though.
Now they come under classic insurance it's ridiculous how cheap you can get it

Just done mine ready for my turbo and it's just over £150 fully comp. Downside is restricted milage of 6 k a year

 

[The Beard]

Might do that as I sort it out.
Been in a unit for last 10 yrs so actually in good nick for 25 years old.
Receipts for fully recon engine and turbo before was parked so fingers crossed can get her to run easy enough.
Will do a proper thread in 5 weeks when can get to fetch her
Only 78 out of the 505 made by tickFord left too

The MG Maestro benefited from having a good base in the first place. I hired a Maestro 1.3 L not long after they came out and was pleasantly surprised by what I found on a weekend in North Wales.

The car was quite good as well.

 

[The Beard]

Insurance is what killed of most these hot hatch though.
Now they come under classic insurance it's ridiculous how cheap you can get it

Just done mine ready for my turbo and it's just over £150 fully comp. Downside is restricted milage of 6 k a year

Actually you're quite right there. They became so attractive to thieves that the insurance costs virtually made them extinct.

Blackbird Leys estate anyone?

 

[Gavv8]

Interesting game of 'spot the Fiat parts' in the interior of that Alfa 4C..

 

[StevenRB45]

Start with a light car with a tunable engine and you can upgrade it as and when you can afford to.....and afford the insurance.

This is game you can play with some very modern cars too take the new fiesta Ecoboost, yes everyone is going on about the ST but the zetec has a 100bhp 1.0 triple, which in a focus is good for 145bhp with nothing more than a remap. In the formula ford concept the same engine reliably produces 200bhp...that'd surprise a few.

 

[The Beard]

You're right of course. Even a Multiair can put out 170bhp in standard trim, which is the main tuning benefit of a turbo engine. What does worry me though is the difference between an engine modified for the street as opposed to one that is being professionally prepared for racing.

The Chevette I mentioned earlier was well known for having an almost bulletproof bottom end, having been earlier intended as part of a V8, so the pistons, con-rods and crank were well up to almost 250 horses. My next step would have been new pistons.

The top of the range Mitsubishi Evo needs a service every 4,500 - 6,000 miles as opposed to 12,000 for most cars which tends to hint at problems with that level of power. You have to question how long an engine would last if it's pumped up too far.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Sunbeam Lotus................2.2 litre.....150bhp.....0-60 7.9 sec (approx) 1320 kg.
Vauxhall HS 2300.............2.3 litre.....135bhp......0-60 8.5 sec (approx)1040 kg.
FIAT Strada/Ritmo 105TC..1.6 litre.....105bhp......0-60 9.0 sec (approx)1305 kg.
FIAT Strada/Ritmo 130TC..2.0 litre.....130bhp......0-60 7.6 sec (approx)1350 kg.
FIAT 131 Racing..............2.0 litre.....115bhp......0-60 9.6 sec (approx)1350 kg.

By the time the Top Gear's XR2 came out it had about the same 100-ish bhp as the earlier cars but they weighed around a ton and a half.

Light weight and reasonable levels of power, I believe, made for better hot hatches than more weight with more power to compensate.

The fiesta xr2i was 107ish bhp and weighed in at a smidge under 900kg so weight really wasn't an issue till the mid nineties when the safety aspects started kicking in 1992 was the beginning of that point, so that's when catalytic convertors airbags side bars started coming in and the weight piled on

The current fiesta st is nearly twice the power of a 1992 XR2 but is still a 1.6l 4 cylinder and weights 400kg more

 

[Gavv8]

I think the Evo in standard trim has a pretty reliable engine and the short service intervals have a lot to do with the fine tolerances in the drivetrain, so many manufacturers seem to spend a lot of time engineering solutions to tame the horsepower that is obviously overwhelming the car because its these big numbers and a sense of being put in charge of something barely legal that works well in the marketing department.
There does seem to be a gradual swing back towards smaller engines producing decent power and thus lower emissions and fuel consumption in a lighter body as manufacturing processes make things like aluminium and carbon fibre more accessible to mainstream production, the Alfa 4C featured on top gear tonight, although still very expensive is hopefully the way forward.

 

[s and b]

You're right of course. Even a Multiair can put out 170bhp in standard trim, which is the main tuning benefit of a turbo engine. What does worry me though is the difference between an engine modified for the street as opposed to one that is being professionally prepared for racing.

The Chevette I mentioned earlier was well known for having an almost bulletproof bottom end, having been earlier intended as part of a V8, so the pistons, con-rods and crank were well up to almost 250 horses. My next step would have been new pistons.

The top of the range Mitsubishi Evo needs a service every 4,500 - 6,000 miles as opposed to 12,000 for most cars which tends to hint at problems with that level of power. You have to question how long an engine would last if it's pumped up too far.

you confuse me/
this engine was the 2.3 as fitted to magnums and later bedford cf
blydstein worked on it
where did the v8 bit come from?

 

[gadge]

I belive they made a v8 ferenza for the South African market. They also raced them over here in the 70's - it was known as Baby Bertha and I bet it sounded awesome