General Re-Mapping of 1.3 Multijet

[Ffoxy]

:bang: THEY WOULD HAVE TO THEN MAP EVERY CAR SEPERATLY
they just use a good for all map, all things mass produced have room for improvement.

Agreed.... take blueprinting for example.

All countries have different levels of humidity, oxygen, wet weather, fuel quality.... it could be a long list, so mapping to suit the owners location and style of use makes sense really.

I'm going for a mild to mid range re-map on my 1.9 GPS on 24th August, rather than a full blown maximum BHP and Torque because that suits me, balancing value against risk.

 

[RobW]

Thinks of re-maps this way:

The manufacturer develops an engine and, in round figures it produces 100 bhp. (100%)

They test and find it is reliable in all conditions (poor fuel, high altitude, cold weather) if it is de-tuned to produce 90 bhp.

The marketing guys decide they want to offer it at 75 bhp, to position the product within the range.

This is not a secret, tuners have known this for years, as does anyone within the automotive sector.

All the re-mappers are do is removing the de-tuned software map and restoring the performance potential.
There is no black art involved.

Hope this helps some of you understand.
It all depends on your risk/conservative approach.

Some are happy with the product that comes out of the box, other will want to achieve to optimal performance. With re-maps now offering a mpg and performance gain it is perhaps silly not to...
From personal experience the best improvement I gained from having a diesel re-map done was throttle response and driveability, rather than outright power gains or maximum mpg.
This is the technology we have available and it is great. I remember setting points gaps and timing with a strobe light, and having the car 'dynotuned'.

These days all it takes is a guy with a laptop and the right software, you don't even need to open the bonnet!

 

[Jake_in_notts]

Thinks of re-maps this way:

The manufacturer develops an engine and, in round figures it produces 100 bhp. (100%)

They test and find it is reliable in all conditions (poor fuel, high altitude, cold weather) if it is de-tuned to produce 90 bhp.

The marketing guys decide they want to offer it at 75 bhp, to position the product within the range. .....

This is a theory and might be true for some cars but what is being argued here is can the 500 gearbox take the extra torque that the 1.3 is obviously capable to delivering. The question is not the engine but the gearbox.
So far the conclusion is - the box may be as strong as the other 5 speeds boxes in use if they havent down graded it to save money. At this stage no-one knows and only through FPT providing the data or mutliple testing on our cars will we know.

 

[RobW]

This is a theory and might be true for some cars but what is being argued here is can the 500 gearbox take the extra torque that the 1.3 is obviously capable to delivering. The question is not the engine but the gearbox.
So far the conclusion is - the box may be as strong as the other 5 speeds boxes in use if they havent down graded it to save money. At this stage no-one knows and only through FPT providing the data or mutliple testing on our cars will we know.

Yes I understand that, but the box isn't suddenly going to vaporise.
The only way to check is durability testing; as Nigel is doing.
Do you feel lucky? If yes go ahead and get a re-map, if no this thread will be meaningless to you.

 

[Jake_in_notts]

Yes I understand that, but the box isn't suddenly going to vaporise.
The only way to check is durability testing; as Nigel is doing.
Do you feel lucky? If yes go ahead and get a re-map, if no this thread will be meaningless to you.

I dont believe lucky should factor into this at all do you...?

The thread has been very informative as it gradually focused on the lack of knowledge with the gearbox. I have in the passed remapped cars but only knowing the mechanics could handle the increase. This being a new car (built for new and old parts I grant u) not all the aspects of it are known and its prudent to ask and research first.
I think everyone will benifit from facts.

 

[RobW]

I dont believe lucky should factor into this at all do you...?

Like it or not modifying cars is very much a gamble...

 

[Oldschool]

so are you saying that money saving results in an inferior part.?
if its the case tuned derv drivers are getting small power gains at the loss of reliability.and do you REALY believe that if the 1.3 engine could produce more power AND get better economy fiat would have produced it that way ? after all they would sell more cars if there model's were more powerfull and still achieve the same economy of all it's competitors?. reality is if you tune you'r car and say "i know how to use the power" or " i just want it to go up hills faster" then you'r kidding you'r self and have probably bought the wrong car.

Car manufacturers don't give anything for the fuel consumption as long as they find other appealing sales points.

When I had in the early 90s dealings with Land Rover on their gear boxes having been involved in lubricants that not only extended the life span but also lowers fuel consumption the reply of the head of the power train was: "Our customers can't care less. They have got enough money and we will sell more vehicles if we give them a CD player instead".

Herbert Demel and Karl Hein Kalbfell were both sacked by Marchione for trying to sort the quality issues in the Fiat group, because it does cost to much money.

I have had plenty more of experiences in the industries. At the end of the day I don't care whether people want to believe it or not. I have experienced this for now 28 years in the industries and I do know what is going on as I have done the consultancy work and I am not the only member of my family who has been in the industries with basically the same experiences.

There is a distinctive reason why bean counterts are hated.

 

[white 500]

:bang: THEY WOULD HAVE TO THEN MAP EVERY CAR SEPERATLY
they just use a good for all map, all things mass produced have room for improvement.

no need to shout
most "re-mappers" use the same map's for all of there work so that argument is pointless.. also nearly all are unwilling to test a car before and after most don't even have a rolling road to do so..

 

[dave]

no need to shout
most "re-mappers" use the same map's for all of there work so that argument is pointless.. also nearly all are unwilling to test a car before and after most don't even have a rolling road to do so..

thats why we keep telling people to go to proper mappers who tweek to the car on the rr, but they keep getting sukered in by all the salesman crap talk of the others and go there

 

[milfy]

why are peeps so negative to remapping on this forum if you not going to get it done stop worring about gearbox failure
my 1.3 has be done and no problems fuel encomy is good if not getting better ,there is no black smoke from it as was stated in one thread
so to MHO if not going to get it done stop Flapping


the postive side of remap on derv 1.3 30 miles on clock when done
the engine is a lot more torque and the turbo has improved 1.3bar
with this extra power i find you not reving so hard and enconmy is 60 -65mpg
the smile on you face once its been done priceless

and before some one trump up you should have bought a more powerful car
i have got A 07 STI subaru 380bhp and thats been remapped 100bhp extra from standard 280bhp and i drive like you stole it :devil:


so can anyone show me how many 500 gearboxes have broken from a remap please do other wise this is just hear say

just got off soap box

 

[white 500]

why are peeps so negative to remapping on this forum if you not going to get it done stop worring about gearbox failure
my 1.3 has be done and no problems fuel encomy is good if not getting better ,there is no black smoke from it as was stated in one thread
so to MHO if not going to get it done stop Flapping


the postive side of remap on derv 1.3 30 miles on clock when done
the engine is a lot more torque and the turbo has improved 1.3bar
with this extra power i find you not reving so hard and enconmy is 60 -65mpg
the smile on you face once its been done priceless

and before some one trump up you should have bought a more powerful car
i have got A 07 STI subaru 380bhp and thats been remapped 100bhp extra from standard 280bhp and i drive like you stole it :devil:


so can anyone show me how many 500 gearboxes have broken from a remap please do other wise this is just hear say

just got off soap box

fair enough

 

[Fred Mumford]

I often wondered why we don't hear much about remapping petrol engines.
This is what Angel Tuning have to say on the subject :

What BHP and Torque increase can I expect on my car?

It is difficult to ascertain an exact figure for each car, however for a normally aspirated petrol and diesel engine we expect to gain 10% on both figures, so if you have an 83 BHP 1242 Punto the likely minimum gain is 8 BHP and 8 lb ft torque. For a turbo derivative we expect bigger increases, namely 35 BHP on the 1.9JTD and a massive 60BHP plus on the 2.4JTD engines. For a more detailed explenation of Torque & BHP, please click here

So it seems the turbo is they key to it which the 1.2 petrol does not have.
But there are lots of other things you could do if you want more performance. I was watching an old episode of 5th Gear today. They were fitting a nitro kit to a VW Golf which was a sluggish deisel. Of course you can fit a nitro kit to a petrol too. The kit they used would be switched on when ever you wanted it on but would remain inactive until you floored the throttle. Great system and perfectly legal. they also said that a nitro kit would only add about £40 to your insurance.

 

[dave]

This is what Angel Tuning have to say on the subject :

 

[ensonricky]

so can anyone show me how many 500 gearboxes have broken from a remap please do other wise this is just hear say

It's still early days, not really enough mileage on the 500 yet, especially on the relatively few remaps, to reveal any inherent weaknesses.

 

[dave]

It's still early days, not really enough mileage on the 500 yet, especially on the relatively few remaps, to reveal any inherent weaknesses.

dont the 500 use the same box that is on a lot of other fiats?

 

[[email protected]]

My own personal view is that you don't get anything for nothing, whether re-mapping or life in general.

Extra wear is inevitable, but you can mitigate against any ill effects.

Drive like a tool in standard spec and you could probably do more damage than sympathetically driving a re-mapped car.

I always let the oil warm through (good quality oil) before extending the engine. Ride the torque which most re-mapping brings and you can avoid life on the red-line.

I can see this could prompt further responses.......

 

[Geordie Amanda]

Sorry, but you are talking nonsense here. Firstly, the 1.3 box has derived from the FIRE boxes, which might come as a surprise to some.

Having worked as an inpendent (consultacy) with car manufacturers I can tell you that manufacturers do not work the way you assume. First priority in the design departments is to save money.

When the 16v FIRE was released it was fitted with double valve springs because of the increased revs. They were replaced by cheaper single ones.

Each spring a 20p saving is a sving of 3.20 an engine, at a thousand engines a week (in that time) 3200 resulting in a 150k a vear.

Save a pence on each gearbox at over 1.5m gear boxes is 150k a year.

Do a couple of pence here and a few there it will end up in pounds. This is a big portion of what design departments have to spend their time with:

Downgrading products after designing them in the first place.

Also the gearbox rating is done to a set formula. If the gearbox is rated to x Newton meter it will be safe to be used under normal conditions at 1.2 times x Newton meters.

.

I think you will see that I actually said that the gearbox had an built in amount of surplus (I make no claim as to the provenance of the box) to take up any excess of stress, as is generally accepted as good engineering practice (obviously the amount of tolerance to this excess is pretty much in proportion to the budget)

As you say a component is downgraded to save a little money and the device is only as strong as its weakest component. You put something of a lower capability into a system and you have reduced it’s overcapacity for stress.

 

[RobW]

why the sarcasm Dave??

 

[Nuova500]

This is rapidly turning into another "lets diss so and so" tuning threads, there is no hard and fast rule concerning remapping as its a personal choice. As for the gearboxes, we dont know if they will stand up to the tuning or not, its been argued for long enough on other threads.

Please keep your personal opinions on whatever tuning company you like/dislike, otherwise this thread will be closed.

 

[grimwau]

It seems to me that all the reports regarding the 1.3 remap have all been positive, no-one has had anything detrimental to say about this. All the speculation in the world regarding the ability of the gearbox/drivetrain to manage the increased torque is just that, speculation.

The 500 is too new to have accrued the amount of testing miles that will eventually prove or disprove the reliability factor but it seems that nigel has done quite a few thousand miles without detrimental effect. A lot of that has been under duress, more so than the normal 500 driver would subject his/her pride and joy to.

I'm following Milfy's postings with interest as he is not a tuning company but a 500 owner and his experiences will be the yardstick I will use before deciding whether to remap or not.

Milfy, please keep us updated at regular intervals as this type of info is exactly why this thread was started.