Technical problems with EGR system (error codes P0657-17, P1304-62, P24A4-68)

[basbert]

Fiat Ducato 2.3 Multijet 130
Year: 2018
Motortype: F1AGL411D
Version: 250C7AFC
Mileage: 93000
Exhaust system: probably TWIN EGR (know for having several problems)


We recently bought a Roadcar camper van based on a Fiat Ducato. Now a problem came up and I am looking for some advice.
Last week we came back from a trip when the Diesel Particle Filter (DPF) warning light came on. After about 15 min it switched off and immediately the Check Engine warning light came up with a written message in the dashboard “Check Engine”.

To gather more information on the problem I bought the MultiECUscan (MES) software and a OBDLink SX to read the memory of the ECU. I performed a DTC scan and found the following errors:

P0657-17 - Congruence of main relay battery voltage upstream/downstream: relevance not clear?
P1304-62 - Speed limit - Signal compare failure: relevance not clear?
P24A4-68 - Excessive distance travelled with DPF ON warning light

I am not experienced with MES and interpreting error codes. The first two errors with their description in MES seem not that important. However, on the internet one can find various other descriptions of the codes. Does anyone know what these codes might refer to ?
The third error is clear as we drove home with Check Engine sign for about 100 km.

Checking some parameters with MES I found that the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF ) is clogged for 216 %. What does this mean, will it still be possible to regenerate the DPF.
Furthermore, I found that the high and low pressure EGR position control are DISABLED. The low pressure EGR valve opening is 9% when the engine is running idle (800 rpm) and seems not to change when pressing the gas paddle. The differential pressure across the DPF is 3 mbar at idle and goes up to 80 mbar when revving the motor up to 2000 rpm.

After finding out that the high pressure EGR valve was disabled I had a look at the engine and found that the valve is not all electrically connected to anything. There was no plug in it and I could see a 5-pin connection.

Could you help me with some advice on the severity of the status of the EGR system and what to do about it ? Because we have another month of warranty, I made an appointment for next Tuesday with the garage from which we bought the van.
Many thanks in advance, Bert

 

[theoneandonly]

@basbert you have arrived at the right place. Having got MES (multiecuscan) already make life easier. If you do a test run with following template and post the csv file here I will look at at and suss what is happenning to discuss with the dealer. start engine and start recording with MES then after 10 mins (to get upto temp) then do about 10-20 mins @ 60mph

Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This was originally written to help one person with his Ducato totally new to MES to start saving data. it is not an exhaustive manual nor intended to be. Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis. Open...

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How to determine if my engine has been deleted

How to determine if my engine has been deleted. This is Not how to delete or even is it ethical or legal, but is a simple method (using MES) to determine if an engine has been deleted. the simplest is the last if the deletion was not recent. All...

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Twin EGR Problem

This does not refer to earlier single EGR systems or to later AdBlu SCR engines. Note this is a guide and not definative. It is up to you to make decissions. It is the result of my investigations of data from many contributors and discussion with...

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this is probably enough for now

 

[theoneandonly]

Righto ive read and reread your post, i suspect that someone has attempted an EGR delete on the cheap ie just disconnect the egrvalves to stop a mil being thrown with no manipulation of the ecu map. The error codes as you imply i think are irrelevant.

Do a quick read of these parameters (above values are ficticious)

given the distance travelled with mil do a short run and well see what we can see.
216% is not rediculously blocked but do not do a forced regen before some attempt at a DPF clean A forced regen at this level of blocking is likely to crack the DPF if its not allready. Please take apiece of kitchen roll and wipe exhaust, is it sooty or squeeky clean.
without seeing any more data As a minimum i would be expecting dealer to clean DPF before any forced regen and reinstate the EGR valve control. Then i would want to see data from template 4 asap to check for lpegr cooler blockage. After any run check for any pending error codes eg P0401, P0236.

Can you do a screenshot of the info page F2

 

[basbert]

Righto ive read and reread your post, i suspect that someone has attempted an EGR delete on the cheap ie just disconnect the egrvalves to stop a mil being thrown with no manipulation of the ecu map. The error codes as you imply i think are irrelevant.
View attachment 464355
Do a quick read of these parameters (above values are ficticious)

given the distance travelled with mil do a short run and well see what we can see.
216% is not rediculously blocked but do not do a forced regen before some attempt at a DPF clean A forced regen at this level of blocking is likely to crack the DPF if its not allready. Please take apiece of kitchen roll and wipe exhaust, is it sooty or squeeky clean.
without seeing any more data As a minimum i would be expecting dealer to clean DPF before any forced regen and reinstate the EGR valve control. Then i would want to see data from template 4 asap to check for lpegr cooler blockage. After any run check for any pending error codes eg P0401, P0236.

Can you do a screenshot of the info page F2

Dear T, many thanks for your advice. This afternoon i have time to measure the parameters you suggest in your last post and will post them in the forum here. Best regards Bert

 

[basbert]

Righto ive read and reread your post, i suspect that someone has attempted an EGR delete on the cheap ie just disconnect the egrvalves to stop a mil being thrown with no manipulation of the ecu map. The error codes as you imply i think are irrelevant.
View attachment 464355
Do a quick read of these parameters (above values are ficticious)

given the distance travelled with mil do a short run and well see what we can see.
216% is not rediculously blocked but do not do a forced regen before some attempt at a DPF clean A forced regen at this level of blocking is likely to crack the DPF if its not allready. Please take apiece of kitchen roll and wipe exhaust, is it sooty or squeeky clean.
without seeing any more data As a minimum i would be expecting dealer to clean DPF before any forced regen and reinstate the EGR valve control. Then i would want to see data from template 4 asap to check for lpegr cooler blockage. After any run check for any pending error codes eg P0401, P0236.

Can you do a screenshot of the info page F2

Dear T, please find below first the general information of my camper Ducato, from F2:

This afternoon I collected two sets of readings with the parameters you suggested:
1) After running motor for 13 min, running idle @800rpm

2)After running motor for 4 km (2.5 mile), at max. 1800 rpm, av.speed 50km/h= 31 mile/h)

The clogging percentage seems to have increased from 216% yesterday to about 230% this afternoon after a drive of 2.5 mile.

After driving the van I checked for error codes, in particular for e.g. P0401, P0236.., but I found the same errors I had before, as shown below:

Sorry for my ignorance, but I did not understand what you mean by “template 4: check for lpegr cooler blockage”. Is this a standard template for reading standard set of parameters with MES and where could I find it ?

Thank you also for the references to the other posts on the forum, they seems very informative, I ‘ll dive into them this evening. Best regards, Bert

 

[basbert]

forgot to post a picture from a rub inside the exhaust pipe with a paper towel, to me it seems rather black and sooty instead of grey ash:

 

[theoneandonly]

this is what i call template 4

In one of the guides i created a number of templates for specific testing this was 4 and has changed a bit with experiance.
it is for general health and for checking lpegr/ cooler condition

 

[theoneandonly]

from your data
km miles
total distance 93000
number regens 191
ave regen distance 487 304
last regen 827 517
Ave distance last 5 regen 246 154

The ave regen distance over its live is ok typicaly 200-500miles
I think the last regen distance shows something is stopping the regen process.
the Ave distance last 5 regens is low and is indicative of a blocking dpf and would benifit from an off car DPF clean BUT a big but, the sooty exhaust is part 1 of a diagnosis that i need the template 4 run for. Dont do anything other than collect the data i will process it soon as i can. You need this before seeing the dealer. sorry if sounds a bit dramatic.

 

[cyb0r]

Righto ive read and reread your post, i suspect that someone has attempted an EGR delete on the cheap ie just disconnect the egrvalves to stop a mil being thrown with no manipulation of the ecu map. The error codes as you imply i think are irrelevant.
View attachment 464355
Do a quick read of these parameters (above values are ficticious)

given the distance travelled with mil do a short run and well see what we can see.
216% is not rediculously blocked but do not do a forced regen before some attempt at a DPF clean A forced regen at this level of blocking is likely to crack the DPF if its not allready. Please take apiece of kitchen roll and wipe exhaust, is it sooty or squeeky clean.
without seeing any more data As a minimum i would be expecting dealer to clean DPF before any forced regen and reinstate the EGR valve control. Then i would want to see data from template 4 asap to check for lpegr cooler blockage. After any run check for any pending error codes eg P0401, P0236.

Can you do a screenshot of the info page F2

Righto ive read and reread your post, i suspect that someone has attempted an EGR delete on the cheap ie just disconnect the egrvalves to stop a mil being thrown with no manipulation of the ecu map. The error codes as you imply i think are irrelevant.
View attachment 464355
Do a quick read of these parameters (above values are ficticious)

given the distance travelled with mil do a short run and well see what we can see.
216% is not rediculously blocked but do not do a forced regen before some attempt at a DPF clean A forced regen at this level of blocking is likely to crack the DPF if its not allready. Please take apiece of kitchen roll and wipe exhaust, is it sooty or squeeky clean.
without seeing any more data As a minimum i would be expecting dealer to clean DPF before any forced regen and reinstate the EGR valve control. Then i would want to see data from template 4 asap to check for lpegr cooler blockage. After any run check for any pending error codes eg P0401, P0236.

Can you do a screenshot of the info page F2

Def could be onto something here, this was near exact to our issues on last engine apart from the dpf blockage amounts. Regens only took seconds never completing but lots of soot at exhaust and heavy grey smoke for a few minutes with the unburnt diesel sent during regen.

 

[basbert]

This afternoon I drove about 10 km with the camper on the motorway with a speed of about 90 to 98 km/h, at about 1900 to 2000 rpm. Below you can find attached the data file with all parameters readings of template 4 in csv format. Please let me know if you need more or other data.

Perhaps redundant, I also added a screenshot below showing the High and Low Pressure EGR valve position control DISABLED. The screenshot was taken after the ride on the motorway. One can also see that the clogging has increased to 246%, which is 16% more than yesterday. Should I worry about this value of increase ? I am asking this because on Tuesday I have to bring the camper to the dealer which is about 80 km up north.

I also carried out a DTC scan but did not find any errors except for those already reported. Thanks so far, regards Bert.

 

[basbert]

Def could be onto something here, this was near exact to our issues on last engine apart from the dpf blockage amounts. Regens only took seconds never completing but lots of soot at exhaust and heavy grey smoke for a few minutes with the unburnt diesel sent during regen.

Dear Cyb0r, did you find a solution for this problem ? Regards Bert

 

[theoneandonly]

@basberg If you have a screen shot of the P0401 error page please post it.
here are some graphs i will explain each some only confirm what I all ready suspect.

Injectors pass Fiat spec

The last 2 could be totally acceptable

Both HPEGR and LPEGR HAVE BEEN DELETED. These are not functioning as required.
The Temperature of the LPegr valve is very low with no gas passing through. With the soot in the exhaust with these conditions i am sure the lpegr cooler is blocked.

The turbo pressure difference on its own would point the finger at the turbo or turbo solenoid but is also typical of a blocked lpeger cooler,
This is a classic case of lpegr cooler syndrome with the added complication of egrs deleted or disconected.
The coolant TEmperature durring the test was ok and not part of the problem. The distance since last regen states to me regeneration is no longer taking place.


What needs rectification
a new DPF new LPEGR cooler
working and cleaned HPEGR LPEGR
Clean inlet manifold
Engine software updated to V32 or if states it is allready 32 replace with a clean copy.
Sorry your van has serious problems which could easily get to 10000 pounds Stirling.
If English law applied i rould reccomend rejecting the vehicle and start looking again. I dont know what course of action you can take in the Netherlands but a simple dealer bought warrenty would turn it down immeadeately because of the cost. I am aware of a British buyer taking the dealer to court and get full reccompense, I suspect a lot of tenacity is required.

 

[theoneandonly]

Should I worry about this value of increase ? I am asking this because on Tuesday I have to bring the camper to the dealer which is about 80 km up north.

I would be concerned about continual running the engine without regeneration taking place. Take it there and be prepared to leave it there

 

[cyb0r]

Dear Cyb0r, did you find a solution for this problem ? Regards Bert

i did. our readings were very close to what " theoneandonly" has pointed out. We replaced our full engine due to original being swapped out. I wrote a long post about it on the forum. title " Don't get caught out buyer beware ". Our DPF (had holes drilled through it but was still clogging with soot ) had to renew egr as was completely blocked with suspected Ecu re-programming to remove or do something with egr etc. We eventually replaced the whole running gear from a doner vehicle inc ecu as we had no idea what else had been tampered with. Ours came to light with first MOT failed emissions plus many other issues we were having. It may help but our regens happen nearly every 100% clogging reading values in mes. In fact after a read late yesterday of 96% clogging our van regend today with Filter clogging reading now just under 10% with a 3-4mb if i remember.

 

[theoneandonly]

@basbert there are many that have suffered the same fate, its now 79 pages long

Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next | FIAT Ducato

@theoneandonly Sorry. I was mad at myself for missing the regeneration process. I'll try to catch it next time and show the data from MES dont worry ive missed so many of mine, but it will fill in part of the jigsaw

www.fiatforum.com

 

[basbert]

@theoneandonly: many thanks for your great help, unfortunately the message is not a positive one but for me very valuable !! I really have to think about what to do now.
BTW: i did not find any P0401 error

@cyb0r: thank you the reference to your forum post, i will certainly read it.

A lousy way to start the weekend, i hope yours will be better !

 

[basbert]

A question that comes to my mind: is it possible to somehow read out when the EGR valves have been deleted/disabled ? Is there a log file that keeps track of when or how often the motor ECU has been accessed and changed ?

 

[theoneandonly]

A question that comes to my mind: is it possible to somehow read out when the EGR valves have been deleted/disabled ? Is there a log file that keeps track of when or how often the motor ECU has been accessed and changed ?

Not a log file as such but these PIDs will help
when or how often the motor ECU has been accessed and changed the first 2 pids
your values given earlier 827km ago was last regen
The p0401 is not a prerequesite for this problem but an easy way to diagnose, I have had 2 occasions where I thought i don't like that, the cooler is blocking, then within 2weeks both examples threw a P0401.

your values earlier

Hope this helps, best of luck

 

[theoneandonly]

tRACK MiKe D HALLIDAYS progress

Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next | FIAT Ducato

@kangexpress reference the LP EGR temperature sensor recently removed, is this a two wire sensor or are there multiple wires? . im wondering if its possible to add a resistor to change the observed temperature to say 130 when its actually 100 degrees to see if the high temp would close down the...

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