General possible headgasket on panda bella.

[partsman1978]

hi i've just bought a panda bella 903cc and after replacing the door coz of kids i suspect the headgasket has gone. i spoke to the person that i bought it off last night, and he phoned his mechanic friend to see how easy the headgasket was to do. this mechanic guy reckons that it could be something different to do with the engine, is that true? Its showing the creamy gloop in the oil filler cap and its pushed some of the gloop out through a hole in the air filter area, any ideas gratefully recieved.
mark

 

[Snaphappyalex]

hi i've just bought a panda bella 903cc and after replacing the door coz of kids i suspect the headgasket has gone. i spoke to the person that i bought it off last night, and he phoned his mechanic friend to see how easy the headgasket was to do. this mechanic guy reckons that it could be something different to do with the engine, is that true? Its showing the creamy gloop in the oil filler cap and its pushed some of the gloop out through a hole in the air filter area, any ideas gratefully recieved.
mark

Could be a number of things, Doesnt necessarily make it the headgasket, I'll have a root around the iNet, and my car manuals to see if I can find any similar problems ^.^

 

[Plug]

Yoghurt in the oil is never a good sign, as it does indicate the presence of water in the oil somewhere. Does it use a lot of water? If it is and there's no obvious leaks, it must be transferring from the cooling to lubrication systems - they should be completely seperate from each other.

How long has the oil been in there? If it's been a long time (i.e. several years) and the car has been standing for long periods, it could be just condensation that's caused the emulsioning. Drain the oil, preferably flush the engine, new oil and filter and you should be good to go. Don't, however, leave the new oil in too long - the detergents will wash out all the old crap in the engine and the new oil will deteriorate quickly. Change it again after a couple of thousand miles, and then go back to normal intervals.

Cheers,

Plug

 

[oldernowiser]

You can get some build up of mayo if the engine is only ever used for short runs and never gets hot enough to drive the moisture out. Some older design push rod engines were well known for it.

The moisture is a normal combustion by product (also seen as steam from the exhaust on cold mornings), and some of this "blows by" the piston rings - particularly on older worn engines - and it finds its way out through the top of the rocker/camshaft cover via a breather pipe and is fed in with the air in the intake to be burnt up by the engine.

If the moisture condenses out on colder metal at the top of the engine and gets mixed up with the oil you get an emulsion - a mayonnaise.

If it starts well, runs well, and doesn't use any water - the head gasket is probably OK.


What symptoms has it got that makes you suspect the head gasket??

 

[partsman1978]

hi,
thanks for the info. my friend used to drive it to work and back each day but thats only 6 miles each way, it was then sat around doing nothing for the 6 weeks as it broke down due to the plugs and distributor cap needing replacement which i managed to sort out on monday just gone.
on wednesday just before lunch i topped up the oil coz it was near minimum then i drove 3 miles to my nans had something to then went on a 4.5 mile journey to my work place was there 10 minutes and within half mile the car died and would not restart. i popped the bonnet and checked the dizzy cap and leads and then i noticed the mayo coming out of a hole by the air filter, which is from the oil cap breather hose. so i automatically asumed it was the headgasket and got it towed home. I started to strip it yesterday but because of the weather i only managed to take the air filter and distributor out. so could just an engine flush and filter change be all thats needed? many thanks for any advice.
mark

 

[partsman1978]

many thanks again to all that have helped me
mark

 

[Nuova500]

My 903 always has a bit of mayo on the filler cap, but thats it, no where else. Even if I drive hundreds of miles its still there. Has the water level gone down, and is there a stemy smell from tailpipe when running?

 

[partsman1978]

the water level seems to be the same since i bought the car on 20/01/2008. I have a history of headgaskets going within 4 months of owning a car but i did only pay £100 for this one with t&t.

 

[Snaphappyalex]

hi,
thanks for the info. my friend used to drive it to work and back each day but thats only 6 miles each way, it was then sat around doing nothing for the 6 weeks as it broke down due to the plugs and distributor cap needing replacement which i managed to sort out on monday just gone.
on wednesday just before lunch i topped up the oil coz it was near minimum then i drove 3 miles to my nans had something to then went on a 4.5 mile journey to my work place was there 10 minutes and within half mile the car died and would not restart. i popped the bonnet and checked the dizzy cap and leads and then i noticed the mayo coming out of a hole by the air filter, which is from the oil cap breather hose. so i automatically asumed it was the headgasket and got it towed home. I started to strip it yesterday but because of the weather i only managed to take the air filter and distributor out. so could just an engine flush and filter change be all thats needed? many thanks for any advice.
mark

Could quite POSSIBLY be, But remember to keep every other possibility in your head, it could STILL be a headgasket, Something is contaminating the oil, Flushing the system and renewing the filter may get rid of the contamination if it wasnt the headgasket, But if it is, The problem will rear it's ugly head once again soon. Only one way to find out ^.^ Go for it

 

[oldernowiser]

All IMHO:

Bearing in mind there are three distinct things the gasket is trying to keep separate - coolant, oil, and four combustion chambers - there are a number of things which can indicate a head gasket failure.
A non exhaustive list includes:

failure between adjacent cylinders will give "running on two cylinders" and no loss of coolant, or mayo problems. Pretty dire, and needs urgent treatment - car virtually unuseable.
Easily diagnosed with compression tester - same very low compression on a pair of adjacent cylinders.

(partial) failure between coolant and cylinder will give pressurised coolant - you may be able to feel the hoses "stiffen" on starting the engine. Also it may run on three cylinders at (cold) start-up, due to dribbles of coolant in a cylinder which clears after a few seconds. This kind of failure is quite common, and can be suffered from for months, if you keep an eye on the coolant level and don't welly it flat out.
Can be confirmed without doubt by a coolant "gas test" to see if there is combustion gasses present.
Somebody "in the know" would recognise the problem and sell it on, hence failure in the first few months of buying...

then you have leaks into the oil - most noticeably coolant, which gives lots of "mayo" and an increasing "oil" level while the coolant goes down.

You can also get multiple failures with any combination of the above symptoms.



Your mileage may vary.

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

Hi there, missed this thread.

I have a similar engine to yours and I am getting the same mayo. Not as much as yours i dont think though. Difference is, mine goes into an oil catch tank after the breather and fills it with mainly water tainted dark brown (oil or burnt oil).

The odd thing with mine is that as far as I can tell, it isnt using any water
Can condensation cause this volume (at a guess, half a pint of this brown water) in maybe 600miles?

Sorry to hijack this thread with my problems, but if your getting the same as me might help you aswell!!

cheers,
Si

 

[oldernowiser]

Half a pint is quite a lot of water, and I couldn't begin to guess - or work out - how much moisture is produced by running a Panda for 600 miles.

Even if I could, the biggest part of it goes out of the exhaust and I wouldn't have thought you could have that much moisture in the sump just from condensed exhaust gasses.

IMHO,if you're getting large volumes of water in with the oil, it must be coming from the coolant.

I don't know what coolant header tank arrangement the Bella has, but on the FIRE engined versions I've seen the header tank is an integral part of the end of the radiator,and it appears to "top up" into the bottom of the radiator. As a consequence of that, you can be loosing coolant through head gasket problems and the header tank stays full to the top as long as there is pressure in the system, which is what the gasket failure gives.

It's only when you realise most of the radiator is cold, bleed it out (again), with the top off the header tank that the true coolant level shows.
( the "vandalised Panda in need of parts" is like this now - it has been for most of the winter - when the warmer weather is here I'll probably do the head gasket. As it only does runs of a few miles at modest speeds, provided the radiator is kept bled, and the antifreeze mix is topped up every few weeks it is likely to survive - keeping an eye on the temp gauge of course)

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

Yes, way too much water I'dve thought to just be condensation. Perhaps i am losing a little coolant to oil and havent noticed it. Will check thoroughly tomorrow! I'll turn on the engine and see if there is a build up of pressure in the coolant pipes!
Not really a huge deal though, as it only has to last a little longer for a nice juicy engine swap
Thanks for the help and will keep you posted to see if i find out anything else. Hope all bodes well for panda bella aswell.

Si

 

[Alan.D]

To be honest it depends on the moisture in the air...at the mo the air is very humid. Just starting and to leave running for a couple of minutes on a cold morning and there will be half a teacup worth out of the exhaust.

As well as moisture, fuel itself causes a lot of condensation so if the pison rings are less than perfect and you start and stop loads the oil will be full of fuel just smell it and see...

The BIG BMW engines have problems with lots of fuel in the oil if only run very short distances which will get to a point where the engine will struggle to start.

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

To be honest it depends on the moisture in the air...at the mo the air is very humid. Just starting and to leave running for a couple of minutes on a cold morning and there will be half a teacup worth out of the exhaust.

As well as moisture, fuel itself causes a lot of condensation so if the pison rings are less than perfect and you start and stop loads the oil will be full of fuel just smell it and see...

The BIG BMW engines have problems with lots of fuel in the oil if only run very short distances which will get to a point where the engine will struggle to start.

Unfortunately, it seems to collect water independant on weather conditions. Hope this isnt a bad sign.
I will check and have a wiff of the oil too!
Engine has no problem starting, and seems to idle ok now aswell. No hunting atall. I'll give the exhaust one thing aswell, its throttle responce is ace!
Si

 

[Alan.D]

Wouldn't unduly worry Si....

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

Wouldn't unduly worry Si....

I try not to. I Shouldnt really worry atall as its been like this for a while now and is still going strong! Cant help but get stressed when its a loved one though

Thanks for the reassurance!

 

[london panda man]

ive had the same thing on my bella, creamy deposit on the filler cap. i was convinced it was the head gasket. mine actually failed its mot the next month on blue smoke from the exhaust. then i got angry and went at it with my haynes and ratchet set. after taking the engine apart i found out it was the valve stem seals that were worn out on top of 2 cylinders. they are tiny pieces but a long job to replace. i never got round to it n shes been parked in my yard since.

hope that helps in some way.

n if you need any parts i could sort u out if your in the harrow area

 

[Alan.D]

Have you got two rust free doors?

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

ive had the same thing on my bella, creamy deposit on the filler cap. i was convinced it was the head gasket. mine actually failed its mot the next month on blue smoke from the exhaust. then i got angry and went at it with my haynes and ratchet set. after taking the engine apart i found out it was the valve stem seals that were worn out on top of 2 cylinders. they are tiny pieces but a long job to replace. i never got round to it n shes been parked in my yard since.

hope that helps in some way.

n if you need any parts i could sort u out if your in the harrow area

Aha, so i might be right with it being the oil stem seals then. We didnt replace them last time we did the head gasket

Si