Parking in gear

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Parking in gear

It's not offensive, it's inane. This is the sort of stuff my driving instructor taught me in week 1.

One of my nephews is having lessons at the moment and I taught him how to hill start with the handbrake years ago.

The instructor had a go at him for doing it automatically and told him to keep his foot on the brake pedal.

:bang:

He's looking for a new instructor now.

portland_bill

Fiat is popular with new drivers because they are cheaper, easy to maintain, quirky, characterful, more robust/reliable and reasonable to insure. Maybe a "tips for new drivers" thread as well could come in handy. :)

Also and slightly off topic, is it just me or has there been a steady decline in the standards of driving instructors since franchises like RED and others have been offering courses to anyone and everyone with a "Pay as you Earn" set up?
 
Yet again Andy more unhelpful/unnecessary comments from you. I think it would be wise if you ignored and didn’t comment on my posts I believe future seeing as they seem to offend you so much

No no it was a genuine question for you to answer

Why do you need to park in gear, either forwards or reverse, if you are parking on flat level ground.... the hand brake is perfectly adequate in this situation.

And genuinely why would you argue about it, I could think of a billion more interesting things to discuss ! :rolleyes:
 
One of my nephews is having lessons at the moment and I taught him how to hill start with the handbrake years ago.

The instructor had a go at him for doing it automatically and told him to keep his foot on the brake pedal.

:bang:

He's looking for a new instructor now.

portland_bill

Fiat is popular with new drivers because they are cheaper, easy to maintain, quirky, characterful, more robust/reliable and reasonable to insure. Maybe a "tips for new drivers" thread as well could come in handy. :)

Also and slightly off topic, is it just me or has there been a steady decline in the standards of driving instructors since franchises like RED and others have been offering courses to anyone and everyone with a "Pay as you Earn" set up?

Why would you use the footbrake for shill start?
Just seems To be making it harder for me as you have to move from the footbrake to the accelerator pedal quickly rather then being able to build a few revs and lift the clutch at same time as letting go the Hb


(Assuming they arnt using some sort of hill start assist)
 
chris3234

I have no idea either, but when I visit a hilly town like Nottingham for example every traffic light, junction etc is a sea of red lights because nobody uses their handbrake at all. :bang:

Okay that's my final thought on this one. :D
 
One of my nephews is having lessons at the moment and I taught him how to hill start with the handbrake years ago.

The instructor had a go at him for doing it automatically and told him to keep his foot on the brake pedal.

:bang:

He's looking for a new instructor now.
Glad he's looking for a different instructor. Very disappointing to try to stop him using the handbrake.
Perhaps the instructor has experience of the Corsa C, short handbrake lever, poor leverage at the drums, so would often roll back with the handbrake applied, if not applied with the correct technique. Compensating for poor technique, by using a another one. "Two wrongs making a right?".

Also and slightly off topic, is it just me or has there been a steady decline in the standards of driving instructors since franchises like RED and others have been offering courses to anyone and everyone with a "Pay as you Earn" set up?

There should not be a decline in standards, as training and qualification to be an instructor is expensive and hard work. Only about 20% who start the process emerge as instructors. Then once qualified, we get regular quality checks from the DVSA, with a maximum of three attempts. Fail the quality check twice, get a very senior examiner to conduct the third. Fail that and they walk away with your ADI licence in their hand. Always something to look forward to.
Learning to drive is expensive, although if you compare the hourly rate with that of an electrician or plumber it is usually cheaper. It just takes a lot of hours, all at once, so will cost £1500-2000 to learn. Everyone wants to do it as quickly and cheaply as possible, rather than take time to learn more and be safe. Instructors are under pressure to get them through the test, rather than create safe drivers. I won't do that. My learners have a hard time, take longer, as I need to feel safe to share the roads with them later.
 
No no it was a genuine question for you to answer

Why do you need to park in gear, either forwards or reverse, if you are parking on flat level ground.... the hand brake is perfectly adequate in this situation.

And genuinely why would you argue about it, I could think of a billion more interesting things to discuss ! :rolleyes:

Personally I think it is a good idea to always park in either first or reverse gear. In the unlikely event the handbrake fails it locks the wheels. As most roads are built on a camber if you arecparked in neutral on the flat you can say goodbye to your car!
 
Personally I think it is a good idea to always park in either first or reverse gear. In the unlikely event the handbrake fails it locks the wheels. As most roads are built on a camber if you arecparked in neutral on the flat you can say goodbye to your car!

It doesn’t “lock” the wheels, it provides some engine breaking but it doesn’t require much of an incline for gravity to turn the engine over and the car to start rolling.

If your hand brake fails on anything but a flat surface, you may find your car not where you parked it, which is why you do other things to prevent the car rolling and don’t in anyway rely that the gears will do anything of use.

Have you learned to drive......?
 
This was one of the first threads I followed when I started "lurking" around on the forum. I liked what I saw on the forum so registered in October last year. I've posted on a few other subjects and had very positive reaction and advice so thought I'd toss in my ha'penny worth on this subject.

I started driving, on private estate land, back in the '50s in my early teens. Tractors, - a red David Brown and a "little grey Fergie" 1930 Morris Minor, 1935 Morris 8, and the estate Austin pickup. None of these vehicles were well maintained - they were only driven on private land - so if you didn't leave them parked in gear they often weren't where you left them next time you went back! I got in the habit of leaving vehicles in 1st gear when parked. When I was then taught to drive on the road, my instructor, the redoubtable Mr Scott, was very keen on you always "waggling" the gear lever to check neutral was selected before starting up, so being in gear on start up has never been a problem for me.

When I later trained as a mechanic I learned how to properly adjust handbrakes so my opinion now is that there should be no need to leave the car in gear, just apply the handbrake. I agree with "Portland Bill" that the hand brake should be pulled up with the button depressed only releasing the button to allow it to engage with the pawl teeth when it is fully applied. ie. Don't "rake" it up over the teeth as they can suffer abnormally rapid wear. After you've applied it a wee pull up on the lever with no pressure applied to the button can act to reassure you that the pawl is properly engaged. Electric hand brakes? WHY? I really don't want to even think about them!

One of the reasons for leaving in gear is often given as extra security when parking on steep hills. The theory is that engine compression will stop the car moving. If you think about this for a minute it's obvious this can't work. No engine has perfectly sealing pistons so as the turning force on the crankshaft tries to force the piston up it's bore the resisting air will, albeit slowly, leak past the piston rings and, if you're unlucky, the valve seats, and the engine will turn. Turning the steering so that the tyre jams against the curb works well but may not be that good for the tyre on very steep hills. By the way, if you are going to leave it in gear, then I strongly agree that you should not engage a gear which which might cause the engine to turn backwards. Overhead cam drives use quite long chains or synchronous belts. The chances of introducing enough slack into this train by turning the engine backwards, especially with chain drives, to cause the chain to jump teeth on the sprockets is significant. So, if you're facing downhill engage 1st gear, if facing uphill it's got to be reverse. To this day I carry a set of wheel chocks in the boot for added stability if I have to change a wheel. I would deploy these for extra security if I had to leave the car for any length of time on a steep hill.

A few more thoughts before I leave you.
# Counting "clicks" is pointless as there are fine and course ratchets
# There may be a potential danger with leaving a "stop/start" equipment vehicle in gear. A malfunction might cause the starter to kick over the engine with disastrous results. I have a vague recollection of this being a problem with one of the early versions. My daily driver has stop/start (which I dislike) so I never leave it in gear.
# With regard to depressing the clutch pedal when starting, I have mixed feelings. I hear what people say about gearbox oil drag and that by depressing the clutch you loose that. I've never found much advantage in this except perhaps in really freezing weather and modern gear oil is now so "thin" that it is even less of a problem. But I do worry about the crankshaft thrust washers. Have a think about this. When you depress the clutch pedal the clutch release bearing pushes against the thrust face on the clutch diaphragm and compresses it. This diaphragm is a VERY powerful spring, put one flat on the ground and you won't compress it even if you jump up and down on it! The clutch is mounted on the flywheel of the engine which is itself bolted to the end of the crankshaft. So, when you push down on the clutch pedal and compress the clutch diaphragm you are applying a very significant axial force to the crankshaft. You are in effect, trying to push the crankshaft out of the front of the engine! What is resisting this? On most engines, A couple of small, half moon shaped, thrust washers! When the engine is running there is a good supply of oil from the crank journal to protect them but there is little oil for them until the oil pump is feeding oil after start up so I don't like to start an engine with my foot down on the clutch pedal! Triumph 2000's were particularly vulnerable and often turned up in the workshop with stalling problems due to so much end float on the crank that it was trying to mill it's way out of the front of the engine!. I'm well aware that the latest generation of vehicles now have a switch on the clutch pedal (my daily driver is one) which require the clutch to be depressed before the starter will operate so I assume this issue of thrust bearing lubrication has been addressed but so far no one at my dealer has been able to give me an informed explanation! A further discouragement for me to keep my foot off the clutch was that when I learned to drive clutch release bearings were carbon thrusts, no fancy ball races! Sitting with your foot down on the clutch pedal would lead, very quickly, to the demise of the thrust bearing!

Well, that's quite enough of me rambling on for tonight. The aliens are about to put in an appearance so I need to go to bed with my book!
Stay safe everyone
Jock
Be careful Jock, I used to put really long posts on here......until I had a stroke. Still, very entertaining and it's always nice to see someone who can write a long post or reply and still spell and maintain a high standard of grammar.
 
It doesn’t “lock” the wheels, it provides some engine breaking but it doesn’t require much of an incline for gravity to turn the engine over and the car to start rolling.

If your hand brake fails on anything but a flat surface, you may find your car not where you parked it, which is why you do other things to prevent the car rolling and don’t in anyway rely that the gears will do anything of use.

Have you learned to drive......?
:bang:
Can you read my posts? I am NOT relying on the gear but it is likely it will stop the car moving whereas neutral will just roll

:bang:
 
:bang:
Can you read my posts? I am NOT relying on the gear but it is likely it will stop the car moving whereas neutral will just roll

:bang:

Personally I think it is a good idea to always park in either first or reverse gear. In the unlikely event the handbrake fails it locks the wheels. As most roads are built on a camber if you arecparked in neutral on the flat you can say goodbye to your car!

Ok just to explain again, it does not lock the wheels. if YOU are able to read your post, you are clearly stating that should the handbrake fail then you can rely on the gear to stop your car rolling away.

You then jabber on about roads being built on a camber, a camber would affect the lateral movement of a car parked on the side of the road and would have no effect on the forward or backward motion of a stationary car left out of gear without a handbrake on. As the wheels of the car would be parallel to the kerb and therefore the camber the car would not be able to roll in the direction of the camber.

It’s fairly clear now you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about and I’d wager some 14 year old who doesn’t know how to drive and also does not even have access to a punto (the car you claim you have) or else you’d not be asking such silly questions :rolleyes:
 
Ok just to explain again, it does not lock the wheels. if YOU are able to read your post, you are clearly stating that should the handbrake fail then you can rely on the gear to stop your car rolling away.

You then jabber on about roads being built on a camber, a camber would affect the lateral movement of a car parked on the side of the road and would have no effect on the forward or backward motion of a stationary car left out of gear without a handbrake on. As the wheels of the car would be parallel to the kerb and therefore the camber the car would not be able to roll in the direction of the camber.

It’s fairly clear now you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about and I’d wager some 14 year old who doesn’t know how to drive and also does not even have access to a punto (the car you claim you have) or else you’d not be asking such silly questions :rolleyes:

Most ADIS apart from Bill it would appear would recommend always leaving in gear
 
I nearly always leave the car in gear, mainly as a result of driving cars such as a Morris Minor Traveler and MkI Escort that were well past their use by date. If I'm honest, there's very little point leaving a modern car in gear as the handbrakes are much better nowadays than then; although there's really no substitute for having a properly functioning parking brake.

When I used to drive HGVs I used to deliver to one customer who opened at 6am, but I was always there by 4. Trust me, there's nothing to do or see on a small industrial estate in Bolton at that time, so it was customary to park up, select reverse (which was forward) lay down across the twin passenger seat and get your head down. On the Bedford TL the parking brake was between the driver's seat and door so not a problem, unfortunately, on a Leyland Daf the parking brake was on the left hand side of the driver's seat and got in the way of a decent kip.

That night I was in a Daf and once I'd backed up the slope to the company's shutter I popped on the parking brake, put it reverse and turned the engine off. Then in one smooth and well practiced movement I lay down and released the brake, secure in the knowledge that it wasn't going anywhere.....except that it was. As it slowly lurched forward I tried to get up but my feet were now wedged under the steering wheel and the parking brake was underneath me somewhere. My out of control (I use the words advisedly) run down the slope came to an end when the ground leveled out after about 10 yards.

Somehow I was sure that 5.9 litres of turbocharged Cummins B-Series diesel should have held me, but......
 
I nearly always leave the car in gear, mainly as a result of driving cars such as a Morris Minor Traveler and MkI Escort that were well past their use by date. If I'm honest, there's very little point leaving a modern car in gear as the handbrakes are much better nowadays than then; although there's really no substitute for having a properly functioning parking brake.

When I used to drive HGVs I used to deliver to one customer who opened at 6am, but I was always there by 4. Trust me, there's nothing to do or see on a small industrial estate in Bolton at that time, so it was customary to park up, select reverse (which was forward) lay down across the twin passenger seat and get your head down. On the Bedford TL the parking brake was between the driver's seat and door so not a problem, unfortunately, on a Leyland Daf the parking brake was on the left hand side of the driver's seat and got in the way of a decent kip.

That night I was in a Daf and once I'd backed up the slope to the company's shutter I popped on the parking brake, put it reverse and turned the engine off. Then in one smooth and well practiced movement I lay down and released the brake, secure in the knowledge that it wasn't going anywhere.....except that it was. As it slowly lurched forward I tried to get up but my feet were now wedged under the steering wheel and the parking brake was underneath me somewhere. My out of control (I use the words advisedly) run down the slope came to an end when the ground leveled out after about 10 yards.

Somehow I was sure that 5.9 litres of turbocharged Cummins B-Series diesel should have held me, but......

Nice to have an encouraging insightful post. I do not pretend to have any mechanical knowledge and am very open that I have not been driving for long. I hope you can see as a Moderator that there is no need for some of the personal comments that are being directed
 
I nearly always leave the car in gear, mainly as a result of driving cars such as a Morris Minor Traveler and MkI Escort that were well past their use by date. If I'm honest, there's very little point leaving a modern car in gear as the handbrakes are much better nowadays than then; although there's really no substitute for having a properly functioning parking brake.

When I used to drive HGVs I used to deliver to one customer who opened at 6am, but I was always there by 4. Trust me, there's nothing to do or see on a small industrial estate in Bolton at that time, so it was customary to park up, select reverse (which was forward) lay down across the twin passenger seat and get your head down. On the Bedford TL the parking brake was between the driver's seat and door so not a problem, unfortunately, on a Leyland Daf the parking brake was on the left hand side of the driver's seat and got in the way of a decent kip.

That night I was in a Daf and once I'd backed up the slope to the company's shutter I popped on the parking brake, put it reverse and turned the engine off. Then in one smooth and well practiced movement I lay down and released the brake, secure in the knowledge that it wasn't going anywhere.....except that it was. As it slowly lurched forward I tried to get up but my feet were now wedged under the steering wheel and the parking brake was underneath me somewhere. My out of control (I use the words advisedly) run down the slope came to an end when the ground leveled out after about 10 yards.

Somehow I was sure that 5.9 litres of turbocharged Cummins B-Series diesel should have held me, but......

In the days of old mechanical pump diesels I was taught never to leave it in gear as if the fuel shut-of failed (or not pulled) and it rolled or was hit the engine could start and it drive off (slowly) under power. I certainly drove one old commercial with a pull stop control that seemed to go back to the run position overnight. probably worn friction or too big a spring.


Robert G8RPI
 
Be careful Jock, I used to put really long posts on here......until I had a stroke. Still, very entertaining and it's always nice to see someone who can write a long post or reply and still spell and maintain a high standard of grammar.
Thank you for your kind comments about my litterary skills. Mrs Jock is never slow to criticize aspects such as these (she worked as administrator in the local primary school). I'm very sorry to hear of your stroke and hope it has not imposed any too serious restrictions upon you. Perhaps, at 71 years young, I should take heed of your warning. I do notice that more than an hour on this device leaves me feeling slightly headachey (does such a word exist?) and washed out!

I know I do tend to ramble on a bit - my younger boy once stopped me whilst I was in full flow about some technical aspect of his car, saying, "for goodness sake Dad, I only want to know how to -------, not about how to fix everything in the whole world!" I would like to be a "good" forum member and contribute without giving offence, so, although most of my posts will be shorter, are long posts discouraged?
 
Thank you for your kind comments about my litterary skills. Mrs Jock is never slow to criticize aspects such as these (she worked as administrator in the local primary school). I'm very sorry to hear of your stroke and hope it has not imposed any too serious restrictions upon you. Perhaps, at 71 years young, I should take heed of your warning. I do notice that more than an hour on this device leaves me feeling slightly headachey (does such a word exist?) and washed out!

I know I do tend to ramble on a bit - my younger boy once stopped me whilst I was in full flow about some technical aspect of his car, saying, "for goodness sake Dad, I only want to know how to -------, not about how to fix everything in the whole world!" I would like to be a "good" forum member and contribute without giving offence, so, although most of my posts will be shorter, are long posts discouraged?
Some people are good at short succinct posts or replies while others like to explain things in more detail; it's always useful to have a balance and can make a forum like this more enjoyable.

One of my favourite songs in the '70s was "Ramble on" by Led Zeppelin and that's a motto I've stuck by for the last 47 years.
 
By the way Jock, as a founding member of the Confederation of Ramblers And Pedants (C.R.A.P.) I have to point out that literary only has one "t".
 
Although I don't teach driving lessons full time (I just do a little just to keep my hand in for the Check/Standards Test) I do have 31 years of experience under my belt.

I always mention leaving the car in gear (1st for uphill, reverse when facing downhill) and explain about turning the front wheels towards, or away from the kerb to my pupils. But, that's only as an aside, hoping that at some time, in the future, if needs be, they will remember to take that additional precaution. Young people often have older cars to begin with and many are likely to be somewhat less than well maintained.

That though, is about the only time I mention this to my pupils as on my car it really isn't necessary 99% of the time.

I have no idea why ADIs should teach this as normal practice as it really has no relevance to everyday driving.
 
I have no idea why ADIs should teach this as normal practice as it really has no relevance to everyday driving.

Sadly I hear a lot of snippets about other instructors still teaching methods from the 1930s, like parking in gear, using gears to slow the car instead of using the brakes, driving on sidelights in the dark, stop at every junction, signal off mini-roundabouts, even if already leaving, etc. To me the most important thing is to get the learners to think, not just repeat.

I've met a lot of instructors who will never take a learner on the motorway. Worrying, if they think they are at test standard, they should be capable of motorway driving. If any learner is not capable of motorway driving, they are not test ready. I will never take a learner to test that I would be unhappy to meet on the road the following day!
 
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