General Panda 4x4 TwinAir questions/concerns

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

In rough order of importance, I'd suggest that tyres, travel, driver, then 4wd are the keys to off-road driving

That depends on so many factors... For example, in an old series landy (or similar) driver skill matters a lot, but in a new range rover or defender, it matters much less, because the computer does all the work. Likewise with all other factors.
Ultimately, the 4x4 version is going to have twice the traction of the 2wd one, so the slippery hill it can climb will be at least twice as steep.
Im not after an all-out offroader, but if I just wanted a FWD car, Id buy a Fabia estate, Swift Sport, or Panda 100hp.

Take a look at the reviews at its launch.

Offroad reviews, especially ones formed based on how a car performas at its press launch, are largely worthless. No company is going to let a bunch of journalists take their car around a course they cant complete, and in a lot of cases, the courses are designed for those cars. Comparison reviews are much better, because that involves taking a handful of different vehicles to an unbias, independant course.

A space saver will fit, a 45 series tyre sort of fits in the wheel well. I had a full size spare in my 100hp. Boot floor was raised bt about 60mm.

Yeah, a full sized spare is something I rank quite highly, especially because punctures never happen right outside kwikfit when youve got nothing better to do. The big problem is, if youve filled the boot with stuff, and then you need to change the tyre, if the wheel youve taken off doesnt go into the spare wheel well, youve got nowhere to put it!
So is it all 4x4 models that cant carry a full sized spare, or just the most recent generation?
Thanks!

 

[varesecrazy]

If you're looking for a TA (I agree with Herts on the virtues of the diesel btw) then something like this car has probably 90% of the 4x4's capability (clever front diff/TC IIRC, and fitted with the right tyres, which this one is, if i squint correctly

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I am wondering why it's £20 VED
Answer... It's 1248cc

Bright looking car though.

Prices.
My 1 st Twinair cost £12 k
( list was @£16k)

At 3 years old you could find them for £3k, it's potentially worth more 8 years on.. Weird to me..

 

[Marcus Daly]

My 1 st Twinair cost £12 k (list was @£16k)

At 3 years old you could find them for £3k, it's potentially worth more 8 years on.. Weird to me..

I paid little more than that for my 2020 4x4 with a hefty Affinity discount. That was just before new car pricing went crackers.

For the first couple of years after I bought it the salesman was regularly offering to buy it back from me for what I paid for it!

Although they've softened slightly of late, I suspect 4x4 prices will remain firm, given they're no longer in production and there's nothing like it available new as an alternative.

 

[airsafari87]

This weekend totally sums up exactly what kind of a car a 4x4 Twin Air (Cross in my case) is. It’s a car we have owned for over 2 years and has covered over 42k miles in that time (30k 100% trouble free of them by us).

We have just returned home from camping for weekend in a really remote, wild of you will, site in Northumberland.

It was an hour and half drive each way on motorways, A roads, B roads, goat tracks and no roads at all, all while towing a good sized, well loaded trailer behind us.

On all of the roads it sat at the speed limits comfortably and quietly, I’d never have known I had a trailer behind.

Getting to the camping spot was across rough, rutted and steep in places fields, with a pretty sharp descent in to the final camp spot.

Going down that last section the hill descent control kept everything in check, even with the extra weight behind us.

Last night it was an absolute monsoon during the night and the grass and that same slope were sodden as you can imagine, I had concerns that I’d not make it back up this morning as I only have Michelin Cross Climate 2 all season tyres on. You know what? The car didn’t even break a sweat pulling up it, it genuinely amazed me how good and capable a car it is.

I’d recommend anyone considering buying one to just go out there and buy one, they are mega, characterful and capable little things.

They really do get under your skin.

 

[Twotone2]

I paid little more than that for my 2020 4x4 with a hefty Affinity discount. That was just before new car pricing went crackers.

For the first couple of years after I bought it the salesman was regularly offering to buy it back from me for what I paid for it!

Although they've softened slightly of late, I suspect 4x4 prices will remain firm, given they're no longer in production and there's nothing like it available new as an alternative.

We paid just under £16k for ours last July. Pre-registered with 100miles on the clock, we had to drive down to Nottingham to pick it up and drop off the trade in which was a 2019 Ford fiesta Eric with 13,000 miles on the clock we got just over £9k for it final price was £16,000 something with credit charge of 9.9%.

I’m just about to pay off the final four years as I’ve a pension payout due next month, £10,900 or thereabout saving about £2100 in interest charges plus £264 for the August payment.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Although they've softened slightly of late, I suspect 4x4 prices will remain firm, given they're no longer in production and there's nothing like it available new as an alternative.

Panda prices have always been a bit odd, because the regular old 2wd panda (by which I mean the 2004-ish shape) has always cost bottom-dollar when it reached a certain age/mileage/condition, and it was always slightly more than the going rate for a scrap car, because its nothing special. But the 4x4 is odd, Ive never seen one for under 4-figures, and it seems that even ones with corrosion-riddled MoT histories, 6-figure mileages, with a few issues in clearly not-cherished condition, and possibly an insurance catagory fetch £1500. If they were cheaper, Id buy one, run it to the ground, then buy another. Newer ones seem to be dropping below the £4000 mark for decent used examples (by decent I mean ones in reasonable condition, without astro-miles, with a clean history) and that seems much more reasonable, given theyre "only" 10 years old.
Im not entirely sold on the Panda - I think the regular 2wd one is an excellent choice as a little runaround, with the normal, 1.2L petrol engine. But then, there are lots of little runarounds with normal petrol engines, and which you go for is really just a matter of taste. The 100hp looks like a hoot, but then they arent actually very cheap to run, or to buy, theyre not even much more economical or cheaper to tax than a Golf GTI or Suzuki Swift Sport of the same age, both of which, particularly the former, are much bigger faster, and more comfortable.
As for the 4x4 - it really depends. If theyre substantially better offroad than a VAG haldex car (E.g. Skoda Yeti, Tiguan, etc) then I get it. If not, then I dont see the point, because they're no more economical, and they're certainly not better offroad than a Suzuki Jimny (which will do 35mpg).
Diesel killed the small car. You need no longer drive a small car to get 50+mpg, and the small diesel car doesnt actually save you that much money either, because theres not much to save (i.e, 50mpg is about 12.6p/mile in petrol, and 65mpg is about 10.4p/mile in diesel, so for every 10,000 miles you drive, youre saving £200. (As cars get more and more economical, each mpg is saving less and less)
If they made an Abarth version of the Panda, Id own one in a heartbeat. I love small cars, but I cant stand "handbag cars" as I call them, cars that are bought first and foremost as fasion items (500, mini, DS3, A1, Range Rover Evoque, infact most LR products) no matter how good they are as cars, you know that probably isnt the main reason why it was purchased.
Ive seen abarth-swapped 100hps, but Im yet to see an Abarth swapped newer Panda?
Anyway, back on topic, what make you of this video? (for those of you who cant be bothered, it repeatedly shows a 2008-ish panda 4x4 1.3 diesel beating a panda 4x4 twinair in a "drag race" over an unspecified distance, to an unspecified speed, but its clearly a quicker car over at least 3 gears, so presumably up to 60mph)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Another factor with the pre-owned prices is the fact that nearly every car maker has stopped making small cars. The VW Up and its fellows from Skoda etc are no more; The earlier Toyota Aygo/Citroen C1 etc has gone… you get the idea.

The Panda with its four doors (most of the rivals have two), and square boot made it a good (better?) choice in that sector (it’s always surprised me that the smaller-inside, 2 door and tiny booted 500 outsold it here. In Italy the Panda outsells the 500 hands down).

As to the ability of the 4x4 there is literally nothing else like it. It’s small size ( compared to Yeti and all larger 4x4s), light weight and very clever 4x4 control (the electronic system) means actually nothing can touch it. I would trust my 4x4 Panda to keep going in places my 2013 Defender would never reach owing to its size. The Panda’s only limitation is ground clearance and deep ruts - but even there it is amazing where it can get to. It’s not intended as an mud-plugger, but as a car to scale snow-covered mountain roads, where it excels. The Suzuki is good - but nowhere near as comfortable: the on-road ability of the Panda 4x4 to soak up bumps is very impressive but easy to forget. (Again, try my Defender ). And that’s why they command higher than expected secondhand prices.

Actually very few 4x4 Pandas were sold here — because this forum has many of them as members that skews the perception of their scarcity. So supply and demand has a lot to answer for.

 

[Marcus Daly]

...they're certainly not better offroad than a Suzuki Jimny

Much better on-road, though.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Actually very few 4x4 Pandas were sold here — because this forum has many of them as members that skews the perception of their scarcity. So supply and demand has a lot to answer for.

A very rough approximation suggests about 20% were 4x4s (that being based on nothing more than the proportion being for sale on AT - but that can be skewed because I'd suggest that 4x4s are proportionally rather better looked-after & preserved than FWDs, so shall we settle on maybe 15%?)

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Anyway, back on topic, what make you of this video?

Two bald men arguing over a comb, I'd say

 

[Twotone2]

There was a video on here last year of a snow covered road up in the alps, I think, and a large 4x4 had got stuck on a bend and the 4x4 panda just drives right past it on the bend and keeps going up the hill

 

[Marcus Daly]

 

[Panda IIs]

@AmbitiousButRubbish you were saying... (this is not a dig - just tongue in cheek...)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

A very rough approximation suggests about 20% were 4x4s (that being based on nothing more than the proportion being for sale on AT - but that can be skewed because I'd suggest that 4x4s are proportionally rather better looked-after & preserved than FWDs, so shall we settle on maybe 15%?)

This should answer that question: the website ‘How many left’ shows the total number of any make and model registered in and still listed as existing (ie taxed or SORN’d, not scrapped or exported). https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?page=2&q=Fiat+Panda+
For the post 2012 4x4 models: see first image and note that towards the end, all the non-Cross 4x4 Euro 6 diesels were registered by DVLA as being ‘Panda 4x4 Cross Mulitjet’ (spot the spelling mistake) as that was the available option on the drop-down menu when registering them new. (Mine is!). Note the numbers are a cumulative total of remaining vehicles, not the number of new registrations each quarter.

For non 4x4 models see the second image, but note this isn’t the full list (the link above will take you there though, and there are three full pages of results). ‘SA’ is ‘semi automatic’ - the Dualogic version. It’s less clear cut for the 2WD versions as some of the model names overlap with the pre 2012 models.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

@AmbitiousButRubbish you were saying... (this is not a dig - just tongue in cheek...)

View attachment 448978

Yeah, a new LR product on wide, low profile, presumably non-winter, road tyres... No supprise it doesnt move, the computer found all the available traction, its just that all the available traction wasnt enough to move the 2.5ton heap up the slippery hill.
The Panda is excelent in snowy conditions, its skinny tyres and light weight count for a lot, and also, if youre only trying to drive it on a snowy road, you dont need much suspension travel.
Im sure if I had standard size winter tyres on my legacy (215-width), Id have no problem getting up that hill. Infact its probably better than the Panda, because its got a viscous coupling in both the center and rear diff.

Anyway, thats sort of besides the point - what Im after is an interesting and/or characterful car, thats cheap to buy/run/own, to complement the subaru. Its got to basically pay for its self in the miles I dont drive the subaru, which gets about 25mpg generously. Now, how many miles I do in it rather depends how enjoyably it is to drive...

 

[Rambling7325]

Yeah, a new LR product on wide, low profile, presumably non-winter, road tyres... No supprise it doesnt move, the computer found all the available traction, its just that all the available traction wasnt enough to move the 2.5ton heap up the slippery hill.
The Panda is excelent in snowy conditions, its skinny tyres and light weight count for a lot, and also, if youre only trying to drive it on a snowy road, you dont need much suspension travel.
Im sure if I had standard size winter tyres on my legacy (215-width), Id have no problem getting up that hill. Infact its probably better than the Panda, because its got a viscous coupling in both the center and rear diff.

Anyway, thats sort of besides the point - what Im after is an interesting and/or characterful car, thats cheap to buy/run/own, to complement the subaru. Its got to basically pay for its self in the miles I dont drive the subaru, which gets about 25mpg generously. Now, how many miles I do in it rather depends how enjoyably it is to drive...

Just to add another voice. Between myself and my dad we have owned 3 pandas over 21 years. A 2004 1.2 dynamic which I can see is still running well over 100,000 miles. A 2015 Panda cross 4x4 twinair which we sold last year with around 85,000 miles. It had no issues in that 8 year period other than serviceable parts like brakes, front control arms (which do fail earlier than I think they should - I believe they were revised and now last longer on subsequent model years), and battery recently. Only sold due to the fact that Fiat will never make a car like this again now they have gone out of production and I like it so much I want to last long into the future - also the remaining value was very high last year for a car of that mileage. We haven't come across any problems with our twinair engines - correct oil is very important though and regular garages often put in the wrong oil as when they search the vehicle on websites like euro car parts it will give two specs of oil (one for the euro5 and one for the euro 6 twinair).
I think the the twinair is very engaging to drive and I love it - there's not really much else like it. James May summarised it well Fuel economy can vary wildly. I think mine would be an absolute worst case scenario as I live in a very steep hilly area, don't do much A road or motorway driving at all and am addicted to the noise of revving out the twinair and never use the eco button, which now defaults to on on the newer year models. I think I'm just under 40mpg on average. Forgot to mention that the latest panda I've got is a 2020 Panda cross 4x4 twinair.

Lastly, this is the best car I've experienced in the snow and ice and it's not close. This is compared to a Land cruiser 120, Land cruiser 150 and Volvo V60 cross country all on good snow rated tyres. There is a reason why the Panda cross/4x4 is the most popular car in the Italian Alps - they are everywhere.

 

[The Panda Nut]

If you cant get your Panda out of its snow drift, its because you are actually dead at the bottom of a vast gorge, so dont Panic the angel Gabriel will be along shortly to give you a push Lol

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Fuel economy can vary wildly. I think mine would be an absolute worst case scenario as I live in a very steep hilly area, don't do much A road or motorway driving at all and am addicted to the noise of revving out the twinair and never use the eco button, which now defaults to on on the newer year models. I think I'm just under 40mpg on average

I also live in a very hilly area, although the roads are quite fast as theyre mainly A-roads. Just under 40mpg makes it not really worth bothering with, unless I had a specific requirement for a small car, which I dont.

Lastly, this is the best car I've experienced in the snow and ice and it's not close. This is compared to a Land cruiser 120, Land cruiser 150 and Volvo V60 cross country all on good snow rated tyres. There is a reason why the Panda cross/4x4 is the most popular car in the Italian Alps - they are everywhere.

Not supprised at all by that, its got the lightest, and has the narrowest tyres by a very large margin. Personally, we dont get much snow here, so its not a concern for me.

 

[AmbitiousButRubbish]

Thread revival!
Has anyone owned both a twinair and a 100hp? Which used the least fuel?
Im likely to soon have a rather long commute, and Im wondering if a 100hp will spare me from the need to get a boring diesel.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Thread revival!
Has anyone owned both a twinair and a 100hp? Which used the least fuel?
Im likely to soon have a rather long commute, and Im wondering if a 100hp will spare me from the need to get a boring diesel.

Remap a multijet.