Technical Panda 4x4 Shuddering between 10-30mph

[Pigtails72]

Help! My Panda 4x4 is shuddering between 10-30mph

I hope someone can solve the mystery of why my Panda 4x4 intermittently shudders between 10-30mph (both in gear and coasting). It's a mystery because I've taken it to two garages (one a Fiat specialist) and neither can find the fault.

The fault is intermittent and can go for weeks without making the shuddering/vibration sound. When it happens it's worst between 20-25mph and can occur whether in gear or coasting.

It's done approx 96500 miles. The problem started after my dual mass flywheel went in August 2024. Since then I've had the following new parts fitted:

- Dual mass flywheel
- Clutch
- External clutch pipe feed
- External slave cylinder
- Rod engine mount (dogbone)

It's also recently had a full 10 year service and had the rear axle oil changed. A new propshaft was fitted in 2022 when I bought the car.

I've had other opinions from non-experts suggesting it could be the rear diff that needs replacing or is out of alignment. I know nothing about cars sadly, but I'm sure that someone out there on this forum does!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

@Pigtails72 A quick question: have you manually turned on 4 wheel drive? (is the green light 'on' on the ELD switch?) If so, that's your problem. (It should always be 'off' on tarmac)

If you use 4x4 mode on tarmac it can lead to shuddering at those speeds owing to 'transmission wind up'. This was covered in a series of recent posts, including this one: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/panda-4x4-shuddering-when-eld-engaged.502556/
and this thread (although its likely this was caused by a different issue) https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/shuddering-over-50mph.513524/post-4787418

 

[jackwhoo]

If anyone wants to know car is 64 plate.....from ops other thread

 

[jackwhoo]

Power loss when shuddering?

Does fault occur before engine fully warm?

Any warning lights appear?

 

[jackwhoo]

Drive in heavy mud?

 

[Pigtails72]

@Pigtails72 A quick question: have you manually turned on 4 wheel drive? (is the green light 'on' on the ELD switch?) If so, that's your problem. (It should always be 'off' on tarmac)

If you use 4x4 mode on tarmac it can lead to shuddering at those speeds owing to 'transmission wind up'. This was covered in a series of recent posts, including this one: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/panda-4x4-shuddering-when-eld-engaged.502556/
and this thread (although its likely this was caused by a different issue) https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/shuddering-over-50mph.513524/post-4787418

Sorry yes, my Panda is a 64 plate, registered in 2015.

Thanks all for your quick responses.

- There are no warning lights appearing.
- The shuddering started in normal driving mode. Before I took it to the garage the first time I put it in 4x4 mode to see if it made any difference- it didn't.
- I drive in normal mode 97% of the time, with occasional long distance motorways, but generally as a run-around on country lanes and local roads/short motorway distances. I live on an unadopted road, but it is still roadstone rather than just mud. The last time I used 4x4 was on tarmac, but in the snow and ice about Jan/Feb 2024.
- There is no loss of power during the shuddering.
- The shuddering is noticeable when driving from a cold engine, but doesn't go away when the engine is warm. However, the fault is intermittent and so doesn't always shudder when the engine is cold.
- I don't actually think that I have and ELD switch. Am I right in saying that it's an optional extra which is normally found next to the "Eco button?" I've attached a photo of my switches for reference.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Ah ha - your photo shows that you have a Panda Cross with 4x4… in which case you don’t have an ELD button (which is only found on the ‘regular’ 4x4 Panda), but instead have the rotary control by the gear lever (circled in photo), which provides the same options, plus the added hill descent control.
As set in the photo it is in ‘auto’ mode and so will engage 4 wheel drive by itself if it needs to. . The next setting round (off road) does exactly the same as the ‘ELD’ button on the non-Cross version (ie, forces 4x4 and allows the ‘diff lock’ function to work if it needs to). This setting should not be selected on tarmac. The final position turns on the Hill Descent Control to help with very steep downward slippery slopes (not available on the non-Cross versions).

So, if usually in the position in the photo, you shouldn’t experience ’wind up’… unless the solenoid that engages 4x4 is faulty in some way.

 

[euroben]

Can you feel it or is it just a vibrating sound?

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I've got a Hill Descent setting on my regular 4x4. It's selected by putting that tall lever in position 1

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I've got a Hill Descent setting on my regular 4x4. It's selected by putting that tall lever in position 1

Yes, me too… and very effective as it’s a diesel.
The HDC was added to the Cross because most of them are the TwinAir petrol and so have less engine braking effect than offered by the MJ (lower compression and half as many cylinders)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

A little aside to this post: it’s a good idea to ‘exercise’ things like the 4x4 solenoid now and again to keep it working as it should. A quick drive with it on round a grassy field, or even, briefly on tarmac so long as you drive in a straight line every once in a while is good practice. Same with air con: turning that on now and again helps keep the compressor, its clutch and the seals in the system happy. And occasionally carrying a heavy load in the boot and giving the brakes a workout helps keep the rear discs clean and their callipers moving (need the heavy load so the pressure limiter lets the back brakes do some work).

 

[Pigtails72]

Ah ha - your photo shows that you have a Panda Cross with 4x4… in which case you don’t have an ELD button (which is only found on the ‘regular’ 4x4 Panda), but instead have the rotary control by the gear lever (circled in photo), which provides the same options, plus the added hill descent control.
As set in the photo it is in ‘auto’ mode and so will engage 4 wheel drive by itself if it needs to. . The next setting round (off road) does exactly the same as the ‘ELD’ button on the non-Cross version (ie, forces 4x4 and allows the ‘diff lock’ function to work if it needs to). This setting should not be selected on tarmac. The final position turns on the Hill Descent Control to help with very steep downward slippery slopes (not available on the non-Cross versions).

So, if usually in the position in the photo, you shouldn’t experience ’wind up’… unless the solenoid that engages 4x4 is faulty in some way.

View attachment 457608

Thank you, that's all really interesting and your lengthy explanation is much appreciated . It's really hard to find specific information about the Panda, on the internet as the manuals have no information either!

I was always under the impression that the 3 modes on the dial were normal driving/2 wheel drive, 4x4 wheel drive and downhill descent, so thank you for enlightening me! So are you saying that I don't need to select the 4x4 mode unless off road, as when driving on any adverse road conditions (eg. unmade roads, etc), the Panda will automatically go into 4x4 mode?

How do I check if the solenoid is faulty please?

 

[Pigtails72]

A little aside to this post: it’s a good idea to ‘exercise’ things like the 4x4 solenoid now and again to keep it working as it should. A quick drive with it on round a grassy field, or even, briefly on tarmac so long as you drive in a straight line every once in a while is good practice. Same with air con: turning that on now and again helps keep the compressor, its clutch and the seals in the system happy. And occasionally carrying a heavy load in the boot and giving the brakes a workout helps keep the rear discs clean and their callipers moving (need the heavy load so the pressure limiter lets the back brakes do some work).

I think that my air con is a lost cause. Re-gassing didn't fix it and I was told by a garage that my compressor "was in bits and that there was no guarantee that replacing it would fix it" (the air con wasn't working when I bought it, so no idea how long it's been broken for).

 

[Pigtails72]

Can you feel it or is it just a vibrating sound?

I can definitely feel the shuddering/vibrating. It sometimes feels like it's coming from underneath the car but don't quote me on that!

Having said that (and keeping everything crossed as I type this!), the shuddering/sound has completely stopped for no apparent reason about a week ago. However this happened before for 2 months, so I'm expecting it to return at some point. 2 questions regarding this:

1) the shuddering/vibration gradually stopped about 2 weeks after I got the rear axle oil changed. Would this have fixed the problem?

2) is it possible that something has slipped/moved back into place to stop the problem? Is it also possible that this part is loose, and has slipped out of place when it makes the shuddering/vibration? Any idea what this part could be?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

So are you saying that I don't need to select the 4x4 mode unless off road, as when driving on any adverse road conditions (eg. unmade roads, etc), the Panda will automatically go into 4x4 mode?

Correct - it’s all automatic. The first position is referred to in the handbook as ‘auto’ mode. Even off road you probably will never need to select the ‘off road’ mode unless one rear wheel ends up in the air (which it can do if the opposite front is in a dip)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I can definitely feel the shuddering/vibrating. It sometimes feels like it's coming from underneath the car but don't quote me on that!

Having said that (and keeping everything crossed as I type this!), the shuddering/sound has completely stopped for no apparent reason about a week ago. However this happened before for 2 months, so I'm expecting it to return at some point. 2 questions regarding this:

1) the shuddering/vibration gradually stopped about 2 weeks after I got the rear axle oil changed. Would this have fixed the problem?

2) is it possible that something has slipped/moved back into place to stop the problem? Is it also possible that this part is loose, and has slipped out of place when it makes the shuddering/vibration? Any idea what this part could be?

Are all four tyres the same make and type? And all roughly the same tread depth and the right pressures? (Note a change in weather can drop - or raise - tyre pressures by several PSI). If ‘no’ to any of these, that can cause issues with the auto 4 wheel drive system as un-matched tyres means different rolling resistances and grip levels.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Correct - it’s all automatic. The first position is referred to in the handbook as ‘auto’ mode. Even off road you probably will never need to select the ‘off road’ mode unless one rear wheel ends up in the air (which it can do if the opposite front is in a dip)

I reckon I've selected it once in the last year - last weekend funnily enough. Best leave it be to do its thing, I agree.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Are all four tyres the same make and type? And all roughly the same tread depth and the right pressures? (Note a change in weather can drop - or raise - tyre pressures by several PSI). If ‘no’ to any of these, that can cause issues with the auto 4 wheel drive system as un-matched tyres means different rolling resistances and grip levels.

Can confirm this too - mine had 4 different tyres on when bought and it felt, drove & sounded awful. 2 days later, new matching boots and all was fine, a car transformed.

 

[Pigtails72]

Are all four tyres the same make and type? And all roughly the same tread depth and the right pressures? (Note a change in weather can drop - or raise - tyre pressures by several PSI). If ‘no’ to any of these, that can cause issues with the auto 4 wheel drive system as un-matched tyres means different rolling resistances and grip levels.

Yes, all 4 tyres are Michelin Cross Climate 1 and were changed in September 2024. I always ensure that the tyres are matching, but it appeared that after I last had a new tyre replaced in June 2024 following a puncture, it was replaced with a used 2022 normal tyre (despite asking and being invoiced for a Michelin Cross Climate 1 tyre! ). Unfortunately I didn't notice this until it was spotted by a mechanic whilst investigating the shuddering sound in September.

Having read up on 4x4 "wind up", this is the closest to how I'd describe the sound that it makes, although the shuddering doesn't fit all the criteria in the description of what wind up sounds like.

 

[Panda IIs]

Yes, all 4 tyres are Michelin Cross Climate 1 and were changed in September 2024. I always ensure that the tyres are matching, but it appeared that after I last had a new tyre replaced in June 2024 following a puncture, it was replaced with a used 2022 normal tyre (despite asking and being invoiced for a Michelin Cross Climate 1 tyre! ). Unfortunately I didn't notice this until it was spotted by a mechanic whilst investigating the shuddering sound in September.

Having read up on 4x4 "wind up", this is the closest to how I'd describe the sound that it makes, although the shuddering doesn't fit all the criteria in the description of what wind up sounds like.

If you hadn't said that you had replaced the DMF this would be my suspicion, the symptoms you describe match my experience. Given your tyre experience described how confident are you that both the clutch and DMF were replaced - maybe just clutch plate???