Technical Oil leaks

[Mike1alike]

Hello.
I noticed oil leaks under the car kind of under the oil filter. As I put my hand round the filter from the downside, there was a lot of oil on the filter towards the engine block. I thought it's coming from the oil filter itself, not being tight enough.
I changed the oil and the oil filter.
I have these pictures I took before changing the oil and filter and with filter off. Is that leaking coming from filter or could it come from somewhere else?
With the new filter, the situation is kind of the same. I don't know if I've tightened the filter enough or what's going on there. There is a lot of oil on the filter side towards the engine block.
What's your opinion? Where is the problem?
Thank you!

 

[bugsymike]

I normally put a smear of new oil on the sealing ring , spin the filter on all the way and finish off with a firm hand tighten and no problems.
If trying to locate an oil leak maybe, clean thoroughly around there, then put a piece of clean paper firmly in place above filter, give it a run and see if oil coming down from above or where you have been looking at the oil filter area.
I assume there is no damage to the mating surface where oil filter sits on housing.

 

[judderbar]

not much of an oil leak. I think it is coming from above the oil filter

 

[rmjbn1]

Is it using any oil?

Filter housing looks good, so as long as filter is tight it shouldn't be blowing oil there.

As above, I would clean it to try and find the source. Paper towel is a good idea.

 

[Mike1alike]

There is no damage to the mating surface where oil filter sits on housing, you can see it in the pictures in the first post. Paper towel test is very good ideea, I didn't get to do it, I'll try that tomorrow.
Now I took this pictures. Interestingly, when I started taking pictures that visible oil line wasn't there. I did put my hand beneath the filter (probably in between taking the photos) and there is oil on the filter there, the side towards the engine block. Like on the old filter, before replacing it.
If the oil would come from above the oil filter, where could it be coming from? Head gasket or something else?

The engine was using oil. And I added about 1 and a half liter of thicker oil to have it on level, 20W50, before replacing the oil and the oil filter. And than it started to leave the oil marks on the floor. It looked to me that is coming from the filter, it not being tight enough.
Putting the new filter I always did the same, smearing oil on the seal and tightening it by hand. But... I also always put some oil in the filter, not mounting it dry. And of course, it sitting sideways, I always had oil spillage until screwing it in and that smearing making it impossible to have a good grip for proper tightening.

 

[Mike1alike]

So before replacing the oil this time, I ordered a Cup Type Oil Filter Wrench. Toptul JDAH6514 is a fit for the Mann W610/3 filter.
It just didn't arrive on time, and I did it by hand. I also tightened the filter using a leather belt and it could go a little more than just by hand. But in the end, it is not dry and there is oil coming out from somewhere.

 

[bugsymike]

So before replacing the oil this time, I order a Cup Type Oil Filter Wrench. Toptul JDAH6514 is a fit for the Mann W610/3 filter.
It just didn't arrive on time, and I did it by hand. I also tightened the filter using a leather belt and it could go a little more than just by hand. But in the end, it is not dry and there is oil coming out from somewhere.

You shouldn't need a tool to tighten the oil filter, just do it by hand . However some are tight undoing so a tool can be useful then.
The drip on filter looks quite thin.
Unlikely but I have had antifreeze from a worn water pump spray around a bit like that

 

[Mike1alike]

It is thin but it is definitely oil. It was dripping from the filter. That line visible on the picture got visible after I touched the filter, perhaps made it move that way. So oil was there, where filter touches the housing. Also, you can see in the post #5 above, picture #4 oil dops on the filter. And on the hidden side of filter, the part towards the engine block, I could also feel oil.

Now I remembered that when I put the filter on, with oil coming out of it (having it prefilled) I did dropped it once on the ground, so it is possible to have damaged it.
My question is, in this conditions, would a new oil filter fix it or is the oil coming out from above the filter and if so, where could it come from? I did put silicone on the cover's gasket and it is dry over there.

 

[bugsymike]

It is thin but it is definitely oil. It was dripping from the filter. That line visible on the picture got visible after I touched the filter, perhaps made it move that way. So oil was there, where filter touches the housing. Also, you can see in the post #5 above, picture #4 oil dops on the filter. And on the hidden side of filter, the part towards the engine block, I could also feel oil.

Now I remembered that when I put the filter on, with oil coming out of it (having it prefilled) I did dropped it once on the ground, so it is possible to have damaged it.
My question is, in this conditions, would a new oil filter fix it or is the oil coming out from above the filter and if so, where could it come from? I did put silicone on the cover's gasket and it is dry over there.

Try the paper above it trick to see if that shows anything first.
Next clean well all around oil filter and wipe of with clean paper towel . road test and check again by wiping around filter to locate source.
It is quite possible to damage oil filter be dropping or over tightening as it is only thin metal.

 

[jrkitching]

You shouldn't need a tool to tighten the oil filter, just do it by hand

That,

These tools are only for undoing the filter, never tightening,

If it's overtightened when fitting, it's actually more likely to leak.

It is important to ensure the mating surface on the block is clean and sound, and it's essential to pre-oil both sides of the O ring before refitting. If you omit the preoiling, the rubber seal can wind up when you tighten the filter, and it can then subsequently unwind and loosen the filter.

I've seen this happen a couple of times; interestingly in both cases after the car had just been serviced by a franchised dealer.

 

[Twotone2]

Definitely looks like oil is dripping from above the filter.

I'm a plumber/heating engineer so used to looking for leaks like this, doesn't look like the leak is from the filter to me.

 

[Mike1alike]

So... it is dripping from above the oil filter.
I did the paper test after cleaning the area and no drips of oil on other side of the paper. I did run the engine for about 10 minutes with the paper on filter. I inspected what I could and there was no oil coming from anywhere. The oil filter was dry and not loosing any drop of oil. I took of both timing belt covers and no oil in that area.
Then, after about 2 hours of car sitting and engine not running, there was oil again. It is clearly coming from above the filter. Besides that dripping that I could take pictures of, I could feel oil behind the filter, on the water pump feeding pipe.
Now the question is where is it coming from.
I had the engine seals (crankshaft) on both sides replaced about 4 years ago. Last year I replaced the camshaft seal. I have this head gasket since 2018 and never ran an overheated engine since. Engine runs smooth.
Is this oil coming from the oil pump? Maybe it's seal is worn out. While the engine is running, there doesn't look like much oil is coming out, or if it is it goes behind the oil filter on the engine block and it gets burned. But there is plenty of oil coming out some time after the engine stopped running. It's like some kind of build up pressure that gets the oil out.
So, what do you think? Is it the oil pump sealant or something else? What could it be?

 

[bugsymike]

I am not convinced that is oil, to me it looks more like antifreeze as I mentioned a possibility of earlier, as quite thin.
In the past I used to just touch a light dab of that to my tongue and then spit it out, if sweet it pointed to antifreeze from cooling system, the only danger is if something other than antifreeze and tap water has been used, but so far I have lived to tell the tale.
Am I wrong, but in your photo isn't that the back end of the water pump above filter?

 

[Mike1alike]

Yes, the back end of the water pump is above filter and weirdly, the pipe feeding the water pump gets oil over it.
But that really is oil, not antifreeze. The antifreeze I have on the car is pink and this is not sweet, I did put my tongue on it. The freezer is on level, not missing. Talking of color, the engine oil is grayish as it's the one with MoS2 additive in it. This one that's dripping is kind of yellowish. But in that area, it couldn't be gearbox oil. And after changing the engine oil, I needed to top it up to be on level, after 300 km road.

 

[Mike1alike]

So, could it be gearbox oil? Coming from the CV joint? But if so, it wouldn't get so up in that place, or would it?
Also, by the looks of it, it could be brake fluid. But then again, how would it get in that place?! And also, the brakes are working fine and no brake oil level light came up.

 

[bugsymike]

So, could it be gearbox oil? Coming from the CV joint? But if so, it wouldn't get so up in that place, or would it?
Also, by the looks of it, it could be brake fluid. But then again, how would it get in that place?! And also, the brakes are working fine and no brake oil level light came up.

Unlikely to be from CV joint as that is more of a grease so unlikely to run down anywhere.
Wrong end for gearbox?

 

[Mike1alike]

@bugsymike you were spot on! It is coolant, after all. Sorry that I insisted it's oil, i was sure it was. My bad! I tasted it again and it really is sweet. And I checked again the level, it was low. I added 750 ml of distilled water to top it up. And I did extract some liquid from the system and it looks exactly like the one dripping, although the freezer was pink when I put it in, and it feels as oily, too.

 

[Mike1alike]

The question is now, what's wrong there?
The water pump is old and it could be worn out. But if it were, would it spill coolant like that there, on the back end? Is it possible? The engine temperature is in good range so far.
My guessing is that the Coolant Water Pipe seal might loosing coolant, as that pipe has the most quantity of liquid on it. It's just I replaced that pipe exactly 3 year ago, so the sealant should be ok. I shell check, maybe the screw holding the pipe in its place has gone loose or missing.
What do you think, what could be wrong?

 

[Mike1alike]

Wrong end for gearbox?

What do you mean?

 

[bugsymike]

@bugsymike you were spot on! It is coolant, after all. Sorry that I insisted it's oil, i was sure it was. My bad! I tasted it again and it really is sweet. And I checked again the level, it was low. I added 750 ml of distilled water to top it up. And I did extract some liquid from the system and it looks exactly like the one dripping, although the freezer was pink when I put it in, and it feels as oily, too.

Glad you have located the leak at last, I have learnt after over 55 years in motor trade that often things are not always obvious
Re the water pump, often the leak after engine is switched off if bearing / seal is worn, sometimes a trace of coolant is flicked up in a line from the pulley area leaving a stain on the inside of bonnet, in your case the water pump I think is behind the cam belt cover so less obvious, but presumably means disturbing the cam belt;(
If it is the water pump with the cam belt cover off you may see a stain from a breather/drain hole at bottom of pump behind the pulley/gear, or a dried antifreeze stain from the drain hole also if wobbled some movement in bearing and/or a bearing noise.
Re the replacement coolant pipe or missing bolt less likely once it is in place.
Re the "gearbox wrong end bit" that was when you mentioned gear oil earlier, so I thought not very likely as gearbox opposite end of engine.
If water pump is the problem don't leave it as it could cause the cam belt to fail!