Technical New Guy with Cold Start Problems

[Jbaz]

Hello Everyone!
I am so proud to be a new 500 owner and absolutely love my 1.2 Pop in BN white! She is a 10 plate and has just clocked up 26000 miles with a Full fiat service history.

I've had her for about 2 weeks and have only just started noticing a problem. Obviously we have had a cold spell and when I tried to start her the other day, it took a little longer than expected - but she juddered into life. Turns out this has now become a recurring issue and every start in the morning, she will jump and judder as if she's sort of stalling when I start her. My dad said its like a misfire but we are not car experts. I read somewhere that it might be due to the fact that the engine does not compensate for the cold temperature and so struggles to start.

The other day I also turned the key to start her, and there was like a starting noise but it just cut out, so I had to return the key off and on to start her, and she still juddered!

Once her engine is warm, stop start is not an issue and if I start her again when the engine oil temp is around halfway... she starts like a dream!

I am unhappy that my less than 3 year old car will start worse than my previous Citroen C1 that was almost 8 years old. She is in warranty until march and would obviously like it fixing. I have read everywhere on here that this is a common issue... thing is, my friend who has an 11 plate lounge 1.2 has never had an issue. However, my other friend who has a 1.2 10 plate KA says her car starts terribly in the cold.

Is this an ECU problem? I also recall reading that there was an update to the ECU that helped with this cold start issue?
Or is it that the battery/spark plugs need replacing?

I want to book it in to FIAT but something tells me that the stealers will tell me that nothing is wrong and try to give me my car back in the last month of warranty. If I could actually say to them that I knew or had a strong feeling that it was the ECU or a sensor playing up, then I will have more of a chance of them actually doing something.

There was another thing worth noting. When I was buying my car, there was a 59 plate 1.2 pop for sale, but the milage was too high for me to consider. I was told by my salesman that it needed a new ECU... I was like, hmmm strange for a 3 year old car. Then something twigged when I started having issues, and I though that maybe this could be what is causing my dodgey starts if another car in the lot had similar issues.

I'll also just say that I wait for the lights to go off before firing my car up and that makes no difference - still juddery.

Please help! hahah and sorry for the essay!

Jonathan

 

[arorat]

Have the batt tested, if that is fine then check for other issues. Why do you mention ECU multiple times, why would that be faulty ?

 

[306maxi]

If it's a 10 plate care it should be under warranty. Take it to a dealer to be looked at.

 

[KaZetec]

My Ka does this 99% of the time during cold mornings, ever since new. Common problem on here, just the way some of them are. Wouldn't worry about it, it will always start as long as you leave the key turned for a bit longer.

 

[jrkitching]

Please help!

Loads of folks have posted here about their cars spluttering on startup. Fortunately, it's unlikely to be anything serious.

With the symptoms you are describing, the car is screaming at me to change its spark plugs.

The plugs realistically last about 8000-10000 miles before the spluttery start problem surfaces. Despite your car's service history, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find your car still had its original ones fitted. Check the invoice for the last service to find out.

A set of OEM plugs can be bought on ebay for about £10 and any independent garage could fit them for you for not much more than that if you don't want to do it yourself. Forget about trying to put in a warranty claim for this, it's fair wear & tear.

I changed mine as soon as I noticed it starting to cough on startup; it was an instant fix.

My Ka does this 99% of the time during cold mornings, ever since new. Common problem on here, just the way some of them are. Wouldn't worry about it, it will always start as long as you leave the key turned for a bit longer.

Over time, the unburnt fuel passing into the exhaust could cause premature failure of the catalytic converter. Not desperately likely, but a set of plugs costs less than 2% of the cost of a replacement maniverter & I know which one I'd rather be replacing. Also, weak plugs put extra stress on the coil packs, and there is the remote possibility of a misfire causing a transient voltage spike sufficient to damage the ECU.

 

[Super Uwe]

Loads of folks have posted here about their cars spluttering on startup. Fortunately, it's unlikely to be anything serious.

With the symptoms you are describing, the car is screaming at me to change its spark plugs.

The plugs realistically last about 8000-10000 miles before the spluttery start problem surfaces. Despite your car's service history, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find your car still had its original ones fitted. Check the invoice for the last service to find out.

A set of OEM plugs can be bought on ebay for about £10 and any independent garage could fit them for you for not much more than that if you don't want to do it yourself.

I changed mine as soon as I noticed it starting to cough on startup; it was an instant fix.

I think this could indeed help, however as suggested by others on here certain 1.2s do seem to have a slight issue with startup when the weather is colder, even from brand new. Our old 500 used to be just like that right from new if the outside temperature was around 6-7 degrees or below. Even our new Panda has done it a few times as well!

As KaZetec suggests, the way I always got round it was to just let the starter motor spin a little bit longer, and it always went first time. But there is obviously some sort of issue as regards to the way it injects fuel when the temperature is lower. To me it sounds like there is some sort of delay in injecting the fuel; the starter motor turns over just like normal for the first half a second or so, then it begins to splutter as if too much fuel is being injected (just like if you were trying to boot an old car into life with the aid of manual choke and throttle, lol!).

It's possible that your dealer might be able to perform some sort of ECU update, but if you are going to involve the dealer I would suggest that you leave it with them overnight (ideally when colder too!) so that you are able to replicate the same conditions that you experience. I did take our old 500 in once regarding this issue, but they were never able to test the car under the same conditions as we had a really warm spell all of a sudden (typical!)

It is a weird one but as long as you are aware of the fact that you need to spin the starter a bit longer then this should sort it out for you.

 

[Jbaz]

I mean, she will start. Me and my dad went down at 6am today to try her, but now the weather is milder, she didn't judder.

My Ka does this 99% of the time during cold mornings, ever since new.

Don't you find this a little unacceptable for a new modern car?

To be honest, it needs to go back to the dealer anyway, as the handbreak cables had split before I got her, and obviously they were repaired - but their ability to hold my car on a steep multistorey car park ramp leaves a lot to be desired.

I'll be giving them a list of things to check or do. If they check the battery and the spark plugs and see that they are fine, then I will enquire about the ECU update.

Why do you mention ECU multiple times, why would that be faulty ?

I don't know, I remember reading somewhere that the ECU doesn't compensate for the colder weather and doesn't inject enough fuel in on start up... I also read that there was an update for cold starts ECU system...

Anyhoo I shall ring the dealer today and get it booked in. Just generally unhappy with this issue.

 

[Murano16v]

This was one ( there were others ) of the reasons a 500 no longer sits on my drive.
To me it always seemed like over fuelling, for when the car did start it would be accompanied by a cloud of bluish smoke indicating that the bores had just had a nice wash. Not good.
Mine did it more or less from new and dealer found no fault. I avoided short journeys of about a mile i.e nipping down to the local shops and took to walking. If the car required moving off the drive for any reason, re-starting later was always an issue - which again would suggest that the plugs were probably a little wet with fuel.

 

[KaZetec]

I mean, she will start. Me and my dad went down at 6am today to try her, but now the weather is milder, she didn't judder.

Don't you find this a little unacceptable for a new modern car?

To be honest, it needs to go back to the dealer anyway, as the handbreak cables had split before I got her, and obviously they were repaired - but their ability to hold my car on a steep multistorey car park ramp leaves a lot to be desired.

I'll be giving them a list of things to check or do. If they check the battery and the spark plugs and see that they are fine, then I will enquire about the ECU update.

I don't know, I remember reading somewhere that the ECU doesn't compensate for the colder weather and doesn't inject enough fuel in on start up... I also read that there was an update for cold starts ECU system...

Anyhoo I shall ring the dealer today and get it booked in. Just generally unhappy with this issue.

After putting up a fight getting the suspension, brakes, ecu & complete air con system replaced under warranty I lost the will to bother with the starting problem. Hopefully you'll be lucky to not have any of those problems but I believe Fiat dealers to be less sympathetic than even Ford dealers.

 

[The Twins]

Sounds like RPM sensor issue to me.
You should consult the dealer.
Cheers,
Ian.

 

[Andy Monty]

battery/earth/ map sensor would be my first things to test

 

[Jbaz]

battery/earth/ map sensor would be my first things to test

What exactly is the map sensor? Im not being funny... but I bought this 2 year old car thinking there wouldnt be any issues. My local fiat garage do a 10 year warranty with the first service free and 10 year full AAbreakdown cover. I will be buying this when my 3rd year warranty runs out regardless. Then if I do have issues, I will be taking it to a garage that is 4 miles away as opposed to 20!

Should I turn up and say that I want the battery/ecu/map sensor/spark plugs all checking?

 

[KaZetec]

You could but under the 3rd year warranty only the ECU will be covered and even that will be a long lengthy process to get them to agree.

 

[RobinPJ]

My local fiat garage do a 10 year warranty with the first service free and 10 year full AAbreakdown cover.

Christ I'd love to see the exclusions that apply in year 10 of a Fiat dealer's warranty.....

 

[Super Uwe]

What exactly is the map sensor? Im not being funny... but I bought this 2 year old car thinking there wouldnt be any issues. My local fiat garage do a 10 year warranty with the first service free and 10 year full AAbreakdown cover. I will be buying this when my 3rd year warranty runs out regardless. Then if I do have issues, I will be taking it to a garage that is 4 miles away as opposed to 20!

Should I turn up and say that I want the battery/ecu/map sensor/spark plugs all checking?

It wouldn't hurt to list all of those items as it shows your dealer that you have done some research.

I know I mentioned it earlier but I would seriously recommend leaving it there overnight and (if possible) trying to arrange visiting the dealer when they open up the following day so that you can accompany them when they try to fire it up when it's cold. That's the only way really that you can best ensure the same conditions that you experience now.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Andy Monty]

What exactly is the map sensor? Im not being funny... but I bought this 2 year old car thinking there wouldnt be any issues. My local fiat garage do a 10 year warranty with the first service free and 10 year full AAbreakdown cover. I will be buying this when my 3rd year warranty runs out regardless. Then if I do have issues, I will be taking it to a garage that is 4 miles away as opposed to 20!

Should I turn up and say that I want the battery/ecu/map sensor/spark plugs all checking?

The MAP sensor on the 1.2 and 1.4 8v is the "Inlet Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor"... a £25 part (for a pattern one) It measures Barometric air pressure in the inlet manifold (where air mixes with fuel) and Air Intake temperature it can cause issues starting due to false readings messing up the fuel to air ratio.....


Has the car got a Full service history or just a line of "minor" services as above spark plugs could be the issue...


Or simple common old damp on the HT leads My sisters was suffing juddering from cold 5 mins with a can of damp start and some silicone grease cured hers...


Holts AQ9R 300ml Damp Start: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

All Trade Direct 1X Carlube 20G Tube Silicone Multi Purpose Grease Lubricate Plastic Rubber Water: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike


fill the plug caps and coil pack caps with grease and then coat the leads with the damp start.........



Also how are you starting the car are you just jumping in and cranking they key? if so try turing it to MAR first and wait for the whir from the fuel pump to stop this ensures the fuel rail is fully pressurised before cranking

 

[jrkitching]

Should I turn up and say that I want the battery/ecu/map sensor/spark plugs all checking?

While you're at it, ask them to check the thronomeister, the sump purifier and the BS recirculating valve.

On second thoughts, perhaps it would be better to just take it back and say that it runs very badly when the engine is cold and the handbrake won't hold the car on a hill.

It's their responsibility to find out what's wrong and put it right.

Reciting a list of things to check that you got from an internet forum is basically just another way of saying that you know **** all about cars.

We may all have our own ideas about what could be wrong, but the chap with the car in his hands is in a far, far better place to work out what is actually going on.

 

[Jbaz]

The car has a full fiat service history! Thats the bad part... wouldnt mind if it hadnt been serviced and it was having problems.

Went into my local fiat and the salesman said something about coils not working properly... anyone know what he might mean?

 

[jrkitching]

The car has a full fiat service history!

In that case, have a look through the service invoices to see what work was done, what parts were replaced, when and at what mileage. Look specifically to see if and when the spark plugs were changed.

Went into my local fiat and the salesman said something about coils not working properly... anyone know what he might mean?

Some cars (mostly TA's, for which there is a recall) have had issues with coil packs failing prematurely.

 

[306maxi]

TBH my car did this the first three winters of its life, it doesn't seem to have done it at all this winter, but when it's been cold the Panda has been getting driven.