Technical Multijet rattle

[DaveMcT]

I’m posting here because the advice is so strong.
My brother recently bought a 2013 Panda Multijet. The later model (obviously) with DPF and variable geometry turbo. I know this is the “wrong” forum but it’s sort of a generic question.

He got it cheap because of a missfire reasoning the worse case of new injectors was still ok. It improved markedly on his drive home.

He came over to me today and it was clearly firing on three. I’ve cleaned and reseated the trigger wires and it is running better.

However I’m concerned about a rattle, which I fear is timing chain. Mine makes none of this noise. It’s done 85,000 miles and babied all its life, so I’m tempted to change the chain kit anyway but what do folks think is going on?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Dave, it does sound like that, can you pinpoint it with a screwdriver/stethoscope, strange it being the later engine as they seemed to make the chain last longer. Can you feel it if you place your hand on the timing chain cover?
One of my daughters with the earlier engine in an 06 Grande Punto, on hers the chain was actually eating through the casing.

 

[DaveMcT]

It sounds like it’s drivers side but screwdriver stethoscope hasn’t helped. The tinny chinky noise has me thinking timing chain.

I suspect the car had been driven a long time with the injection issue which won’t have helped the chain.

I bought mine with broken chain and rebuilt the engine. It’s now lovely & quiet - as it should be after all that work!!! But completely useless for diagnosing a rattle.

Edit. Previous owner said there was no rattle before his timing chain broke. When I compared it with new for side ways curve they were almost the same. Old chain had broken side links.

 

[bugsymike]

It sounds like it’s drivers side but screwdriver stethoscope hasn’t helped. The tinny chinky noise has me thinking timing chain.

I suspect the car had been driven a long time with the injection issue which won’t have helped the chain.

I bought mine with broken belt and rebuilt the engine. It’s lovely & quiet - as it should be after all that work!!! But completely useless for diagnosing a rattle.

What else is down there, water pump, alternator?
It is sort of "tinkly" like a timing chain, maybe others on Forum can make another suggestion.

 

[koalar]

Sounds more like a tractor

Not a lot to go on

Crankshaft Pulley delaminating
Timing Chain worn
Hydraulic Tensioner failed
Chain guide snapped
Faulty or leaking injectors
Tappet/s failed or sticking
Oil dilution leading to bearing wear

And so on

Smell and blotting paper test of the oil would be an easy first test, although it would be inconclusive if the oil has already been changed

 

[DaveMcT]

On the basis that one dodgy injector means others will soon follow, we were expecting to replace the injectors.

Oil is new. Dipstick tip smells of normal diesel sump.

Mine had an obvious diesel knock on rundown from 2000rpm (dribbling injector). This doesn’t make anything like that noise.

I’ve not thought about the crankshaft pulley.
Thanks. I’ll check it out.

The noise is too high pitch for rods or mains. I’ve heard both though not in a Fiat. Rod ends tend to go quiet with revs.

I’ve had a ticking diesel that clicked at 2x engine revs. That was a broken piston skirt clicking shut on downstroke and again on upstroke. Not at all like this one.

Alternator failed on 100HP. It screeched like a water pump on cold start.

 

[irc]

Hi Dave
Couple of fairly random questions...
How certain of the history are you? (Any change it skipped bunch of oil changes through dodgy garage practices?)
And a really left-field one...
Any chance it ingested water (deep ford, overflowing scuttle, etc.)?
I sold an engine to a local guy with a vauxhall combo that sounded like the video, complete with the dodgy injector sound and strange not-quite-chain-slap noise. He had waded into a deep ford and chickened out, reversed and diverted home. Next morning he noticed rough running and strange noise. He found water in air filter box and his mechanic told him the engine was toast.
Hope it's neither of these, but can't really tell from the video.

 

[DaveMcT]

Hi Dave
Couple of fairly random questions...
How certain of the history are you? (Any change it skipped bunch of oil changes through dodgy garage practices?)
And a really left-field one...
Any chance it ingested water (deep ford, overflowing scuttle, etc.)?
I sold an engine to a local guy with a vauxhall combo that sounded like the video, complete with the dodgy injector sound and strange not-quite-chain-slap noise. He had waded into a deep ford and chickened out, reversed and diverted home. Next morning he noticed rough running and strange noise. He found water in air filter box and his mechanic told him the engine was toast.
Hope it's neither of these, but can't really tell from the video.

We have clean vehicle check - nothing has been recorded on insurance, HPI, etc. But as we all know who knows what's really gone on.

Service record looks good but we have no contact with the garages used.

Scuttle and air intake box all look clean and as you'd expect for a 12 years old car. It's unlikely the previous owners would have taken off the black scuttle plastic to clean it out and it does not look excessively clean. Circumstantial evidence at best.

When it's running on all four its quick and very nice to drive but lumpy at low revs close to idle speed. Getting out of my narrow potholed lane is jerky if you are not careful. Mine was the same when I had a dribbling fuel injector. It does not have the harsh diesel preignition that mine had when the new fuel pump exposed the injector. When it goes to three cylinders, it feels like a bus but perfectly usable if you know no different. My feeling is there's nothing too nasty. It could be far worse, I'm not losing sleep just yet.

EDIT - I suspect one of the injectors has an electrical issue. It needs a cold start with wet exhaust manifold to see which one is not doing its share and work.

I'm ordering a timing chain kit and "oil pump" (which comes with the timing cover) from Shop 4 Parts so that can be swapped. At 85,000 miles it's not ridiculously early. Timing cover might not be needed but a thrashing chain wont have done it any favours.

 

[ceecff]

Yes can be chain slightly out sync. First start cold it should sound even worse.

 

[DaveMcT]

Ive not heard a proper cold start. But I’m off work all week so getting parts fast tracked. Chain kit, chain cover (includes oil pump) and a set of rockers and lifters.

The latter can’t be fitted without disconnecting the timing chain so makes sense to do them anyway.

 

[DaveMcT]

The fancy turbo is right in the way for locking the exhaust cam, but I should be able to use the inlet cam lock. Finding the locking slot will be a different matter. On the plus side, the wiring loom looks just long enough to get the cam cover off the engine, the injectors are out and they all look fine. No wet ends.

Driver's side wheel arch liner has to come out and every cross head self tapper was seized. One came out with a screw extractor. The others had to be slotted with the dremel. The ridiculous M6 high up at the front had to be cut off. It was too rusty for any socket to fit.

The flywheel locking hole is hidden behind the DPF and associated balls. It's near impossible to get at. Thanks engineers.

The engine breather system located under the inlet manifold is leaking oil. It's a right old mess. Has anyone had this on a diesel 500 or 312 Panda?

 

[DaveMcT]

UPDATE

DPF and turbo removed for easier access. The aircon compressor was covered in black oil so I was looking for a leak. It turns out the angled oil filer cover spills a good measure of engine oil when it's removed. Clamping breakfast cereal box card around the filter cup will probably solve the problem but Fiat really messed up here. The 169 Multijet does not do this.
The timing chain was so worn and loose, the tensioner piston was about to fall out. The tensioner side chain guide looks fine. The fixed chain guide is nearly sawn through. So that's source of the noise found and not a moment too soon.
The injectors all came out with minimal persuasion and all look the same. No signs of wet tips.
Glow plugs were throwing up warnings so a new set has gone in. They old plugs were in a bad way and not well tightened. One was jammed with carbon, but WD40 and careful working got it out. The hole cleaned up and all is good with the new injectors. S4P have genuine Fiat parts for £67 (including Vodka And Tonic) the set. Not bad, because nobody else could offer next day delivery.
After going this far, I decided to change the rockers and lifters. Actually, the ones in place looked fine but how would you know? Mine were falling apart at 120,000 miles with needle rollers in the sump, etc, etc. The job was unnecessarily hard. The wiring loom wraps around the entire engine and cannot be pulled back without tangling with hidden brackets. Again Fiat - What are your design bodgers (sorry) engineer's doing?
It's now on the home straight. New cam chain goes in tomorrow and the rebuild begins. The old cover is has some marks but no significant damage.

 

[DaveMcT]

The chain tensioner ran out of adjustment aeons ago. Chain was flapping loose.

Check out the old and new chains and the chewed up fixed chain guide. The broken chain on my Multijet was not this badly worn. Chain glide was getting sawn off.

The oil spray pipe looked ok but I wonder if it was actually spraying. It’s impossible to test with the new one installed so have to hope it’s ok.

I’ve cleaned out the sump but it’s really not bad. It has some rusty stone chips, but it’s not the original.

 

[DaveMcT]

The rockers and lifters on my 169 Multijet were trashed at 120,000 miles needle bearings were falling out, ball ends worn flat, etc. So I bought a new set for this one. The old set all looked fine but I’ve fitted the new ones anyway.

A big hassle is that Fiat festooned the engine with wiring loom and no simple way to get it out of the way. The cam cover has to be threaded into place and not disturb any rockers. Another disappointment with the engineers who made the 312 Panda.

 

[bugsymike]

I did a Lada timing chain job one time and there was three old guides that had snapped off and dropped into the sump during it's lifetime.
Working at the dealers we always adjusted the chain every service but many garages didn't even know they had a manual adjuster, so what happened was they flailed around snapping the guides and eventually eating through the cylinder head

 

[DaveMcT]

My brother had a Honda 400 Superdream which ate timing chains and balance shaft chains. I had a Kawasaki Z400. The sounds of flapping cam chains are in our DNA. This Multijet even clicketty-clicked while turning the crank to fit the flywheel locking pin.

 

[puntodad19]

Hi Dave,

Honda super slug, would he like another one, or three ?

To be fair, the CB400N was better than the 250 on main roads, hills and headwinds.

Both went like the clappers with a tail wind.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Dave,

Honda super slug, would he like another one, or three ?

To be fair, the CB400N was better than the 250 on main roads, hills and headwinds.

Both went like the clappers with a tail wind.

To be fair most of those bikes were for 16 year olds who probably only weighed 9 stone.
I remember buying a CB77 305cc cheap after recalling they were the bike that many envied in the 60s, got on it and it felt like a child's push bike for size.
A brother in law at the time bought a brand new 250cc Superdream I rode it back from the dealers for him as I had a full license and trade insurance, distinctly unimpressed.

 

[puntodad19]

Hence super slug.

Surely 9 stone 17 year olds.

Heavy bikes especially when they "broke down"...

However 250 is good fun on known back roads leaving much more powerful bikes in the dust, for a few seconds at least .

Anyways, back to fiat cam chain woes......

 

[bugsymike]

Hence super slug.

Surely 9 stone 17 year olds.

Heavy bikes especially when they "broke down"...

However 250 is good fun on known back roads leaving much more powerful bikes in the dust, for a few seconds at least .

Anyways, back to fiat cam chain woes......

16 was legal in 1969, I had a 600cc matchless with a sidecar on L plates and you could legal have passengers. It was only when 100mph Japanese 250cc came out that the media forced a law change.