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Jeez..there is some effort gone into your multi...
Glad its all going together well
Glad its all going together well
General Let's get this party started.....
- Thread starter widemouthfrog
- Start date
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General Let's get this party started.....
Dude, that's really clever.
Great thinking mate.
Ta
Great thinking mate.
Ta
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- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
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- 164
Looks great.
Got quoted 300 euro to have mine shot blasted!!!
It will be getting the hammerite treatment I reckon, maybe some rust eater stuff first if I'm feeling really generous!!
Marty.
Got quoted 300 euro to have mine shot blasted!!!
It will be getting the hammerite treatment I reckon, maybe some rust eater stuff first if I'm feeling really generous!!
Marty.
OP
OP
Another day, another dollar. Todays progress:
Fitted new swing arm bearings. Judging by the tales of grief recounted on the forum, I think I got pretty lucky with removing the old swing arm bolts and bearings. Both arms were removed and the bearings knocked out in about 10 minutes. It was a LOT easier to do this with the subframe dropped. I would have spent a lot longer p1ssing about with the subframe left in situ. Anyway all that was a few days ago and since then I've cleaned the swing arms up and painted them. If I had managed to remove the ABS sensors, I would have got them shot blasted and powder coated along with the subframe, but I know the sensors are Not To Be Messed With unless you fancy fitting new ones.
The swing arm bearing kit is an odd set up (to me anyway):
Left to right - Bolt head (to outside of car when all's in place), washer (should be under the nut at the other end when assembled), a very hard metal shouldered washer, a rubber grommet/seal that the shouldered washer sits in when all is assembled, a metal bearing sleeve (the shiny metal tube - this runs the full width of the arm), one taper roller bearing (still in its' placcy bag), a central plastic spacer/sleeve (the white thing in the middle). Then it all repeats again in reverse order as you go to the right of the photo, except there's a nyloc nut at extreme right and not a bolt head. The outer part of the right hand bearing is removed so that you can see the rollers.
The first thing to do is to seat the outer of the taper bearings in the trailing arm. I did this with a large socket of about the same diameter as the bearing, and a hide mallet. You can see the bearing outer and the shoulder that it needs to be driven back onto here:
You can also see the grease nipple I fitted to the swing arm in line with this shoulder (thanks to BikeDoc for this idea
). Hopefully this will stop the bloody thing seizing up or wearing in future. Once it's driven fully home and the white plastic spacer fitted (don't forget to put this in BEFORE fitting the other bearing outer as it gets trapped in place by them), you see this:
I cut away a small portion of the white spacer to allow the grease nipple to feed grease to the bearing. This spacer is all that seals the inner faces of the bearings from the elements as there's a fair-sized hole in the bottom of the swing arms that will allow water, road salt etc up inside it. The spacer is actually pinched in place by the seated bearings.
Then you need to wind the bearing inners onto the metal bearing sleeve. They are an interference fit so need some force to seat them. The swing arm bolt isn't long enough to allow you to do both bearings in one operation, so you have to fit one then remove the nyloc nut, insert the part-assemble inner/shaft into the swing arm and then seat the second bearing, like so:
Once that has been wound in nice and tight to seat everything, the nyloc and bolt can be removed and the swing arm put back in place on the subframe. Once I'd got all the cleaned up bits refiited, along with the new springs and dampers, it ended up looking something like this:
But for some horrible metal-strapped retaining cliips that fit to the swing arms and one of two small nylon cable cliips, this is now ready for refitting to my Multi. Roll on Monday! I like the ARB installation and design - the centre span of the bar is pretty much in line with the swing arm pivot bolts, so the twisting moment is on the bar axis. Very neat. Also note the tube bungs I fitted to the large holes in the swing arms - ones for 1 1/4" tube fit really well. I'll keep an eye on them to make sure they're not trapping muck inside the swing arms (which would be even worse than having the hole there in the first place) but I can't see anywhere else that dirt could get in.
Fitted new swing arm bearings. Judging by the tales of grief recounted on the forum, I think I got pretty lucky with removing the old swing arm bolts and bearings. Both arms were removed and the bearings knocked out in about 10 minutes. It was a LOT easier to do this with the subframe dropped. I would have spent a lot longer p1ssing about with the subframe left in situ. Anyway all that was a few days ago and since then I've cleaned the swing arms up and painted them. If I had managed to remove the ABS sensors, I would have got them shot blasted and powder coated along with the subframe, but I know the sensors are Not To Be Messed With unless you fancy fitting new ones.
The swing arm bearing kit is an odd set up (to me anyway):
Left to right - Bolt head (to outside of car when all's in place), washer (should be under the nut at the other end when assembled), a very hard metal shouldered washer, a rubber grommet/seal that the shouldered washer sits in when all is assembled, a metal bearing sleeve (the shiny metal tube - this runs the full width of the arm), one taper roller bearing (still in its' placcy bag), a central plastic spacer/sleeve (the white thing in the middle). Then it all repeats again in reverse order as you go to the right of the photo, except there's a nyloc nut at extreme right and not a bolt head. The outer part of the right hand bearing is removed so that you can see the rollers.
The first thing to do is to seat the outer of the taper bearings in the trailing arm. I did this with a large socket of about the same diameter as the bearing, and a hide mallet. You can see the bearing outer and the shoulder that it needs to be driven back onto here:
You can also see the grease nipple I fitted to the swing arm in line with this shoulder (thanks to BikeDoc for this idea
). Hopefully this will stop the bloody thing seizing up or wearing in future. Once it's driven fully home and the white plastic spacer fitted (don't forget to put this in BEFORE fitting the other bearing outer as it gets trapped in place by them), you see this:
I cut away a small portion of the white spacer to allow the grease nipple to feed grease to the bearing. This spacer is all that seals the inner faces of the bearings from the elements as there's a fair-sized hole in the bottom of the swing arms that will allow water, road salt etc up inside it. The spacer is actually pinched in place by the seated bearings.
Then you need to wind the bearing inners onto the metal bearing sleeve. They are an interference fit so need some force to seat them. The swing arm bolt isn't long enough to allow you to do both bearings in one operation, so you have to fit one then remove the nyloc nut, insert the part-assemble inner/shaft into the swing arm and then seat the second bearing, like so:
Once that has been wound in nice and tight to seat everything, the nyloc and bolt can be removed and the swing arm put back in place on the subframe. Once I'd got all the cleaned up bits refiited, along with the new springs and dampers, it ended up looking something like this:
But for some horrible metal-strapped retaining cliips that fit to the swing arms and one of two small nylon cable cliips, this is now ready for refitting to my Multi. Roll on Monday! I like the ARB installation and design - the centre span of the bar is pretty much in line with the swing arm pivot bolts, so the twisting moment is on the bar axis. Very neat. Also note the tube bungs I fitted to the large holes in the swing arms - ones for 1 1/4" tube fit really well. I'll keep an eye on them to make sure they're not trapping muck inside the swing arms (which would be even worse than having the hole there in the first place) but I can't see anywhere else that dirt could get in.
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Next up, front struts. Relatively straightforward as most of the bits are new, and I ducked the problem of compressing the springs by getting the local workshop to put them together. £20 well spent!
The only parts that I've reused are the rubber spring seats and the damper rod gaiters. Considering they're over 8 years old, all still in pretty good condition. There's quite a gap between the Bilstein damper body and the gaiter (about 5-6mm all round) so I'm trying to think of a neat way of closing that up a bit to stop road crud getting on to the damper rod.
The only parts that I've reused are the rubber spring seats and the damper rod gaiters. Considering they're over 8 years old, all still in pretty good condition. There's quite a gap between the Bilstein damper body and the gaiter (about 5-6mm all round) so I'm trying to think of a neat way of closing that up a bit to stop road crud getting on to the damper rod.
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Well, it's back on the road, and all feels fine. Very taught handling now. Brakes and dampers still need to bed in, so I'm taking it easy for a couple of hundred miles. The front end knock has gone as well.
I didn't get many pictures as the camera batteries ran out, but I plan to take the wheels back off tomorrow to clean them up so will get some then.
This shows the connector (centre of pic) and grommet ( to the left, poking out from under the carpet felt) for the rear ABS sensor cable.
Make a note of the routing of this cable under the car, as it's a bit fiddly to put back.
A couple of the front end. Much tidier than it was. There's not much to say about fitting the struts. Once built up (as shown in previous photos), fitting them to the car is very straightforward - three bolts through the inner wing for the top mount, and a pair of pich bolts to connect the bottom of the strut to the hub.
I'll post my thoughts on the Pagid discs and pads when I've put a few miles on them. I'm also taking it for 4 wheel alignment. The rear subframe has a complete lack of alignment pins or locations. The whole thing can be moved around a lot (certainly enough to affect tracking) as the four mounting bolts are tightened - I don't see how you're supposed to get it squared up.
I didn't get many pictures as the camera batteries ran out, but I plan to take the wheels back off tomorrow to clean them up so will get some then.
This shows the connector (centre of pic) and grommet ( to the left, poking out from under the carpet felt) for the rear ABS sensor cable.
Make a note of the routing of this cable under the car, as it's a bit fiddly to put back.
A couple of the front end. Much tidier than it was. There's not much to say about fitting the struts. Once built up (as shown in previous photos), fitting them to the car is very straightforward - three bolts through the inner wing for the top mount, and a pair of pich bolts to connect the bottom of the strut to the hub.
I'll post my thoughts on the Pagid discs and pads when I've put a few miles on them. I'm also taking it for 4 wheel alignment. The rear subframe has a complete lack of alignment pins or locations. The whole thing can be moved around a lot (certainly enough to affect tracking) as the four mounting bolts are tightened - I don't see how you're supposed to get it squared up.
lancia8888
New member
This is super impressive stuff!! Paint finish looks great, just wish I had had time to get everything cleaned up and painted like yours. I only have the Multi and it nearly did us in being without a cars for 3 weeks. But it does sit underneath and will soon be grimy again! I had settled on Pagid discs as well, will be interesting to get your thoughts on the performance. Wish I fitted bilstien shocks but I got a good deal on oem shocks as I couldn't find any reviews on the B4's. The pictures have been great to follow, thanks. I look forward to some easy running now without spending on the Multi!. It just shows what can be done by the home techy if you have access to the correct tools and a bit of common sense! Oh and money helps.
Cheers.
Cheers.
OP
OP
Thanks for the comments. Had the wheels off and cleaned them today and while I was at it, jetwashed the underside and wheelarch liners. I discovered bits of bodywork that I never even knew existed! Then took the last of the photos for this thread:
I suppose I should have done the jetwashing while all the suspension was off, but it wasn't too bad done with everything in place (apart from the wheels). You can also just about see that before I put the rear subframe back on, I put a coat of underseal around the bushes, making sure the join between the subframe and the bushes was well coated. As the subframe is bare metal in those holes, I figured that is the most likely place for the rust to start.
Did some local runs to check everything is ok, and took it for wheel alignment. I hadn't used the place I went to before, but the guy setting it up was very attentive and the piece of kit they used (Hunter something-or-other?) was interesting to watch in action. I voiced my concerns about the rear subframe and the potential for misalignment when fitting it, so he set up a four-wheel check. The number of adjustments that can be made on the Multi are pretty limited, so many of the readout figures were of the 'This is what you've got, if it's wrong, tough' type, but he did say that I appear to have the rear subframe on pretty straight, so I'm pleased about that much at least. Front tracking was miles out, so he set that up to the factory figure (not 0 degrees as has often been recommended on the forum). The front tyres haven't got bags of life left in them, so I figured I'd experiment with those and see how the inner shoulder wear goes, then decide what change to make (if any) when I get new rubber fitted.
The handling is great fun now. Like a cross between a go kart and one of those motorised bar stools. The tracking made a definite difference to the cornering feel. The Multi rides a fair bit higher on the new springs than the old. Can't say it really bothers me as it was lacking a bit in ground clearance before. We'll see how it settles after a few months.
As for the cost - yes, I have spent more than I wanted to, but six months ago I was thinking of buying another Alhambra. I decided against it, because I knew that (yet again) I would be consigning myself to around £2k loss per year in depreciation, plus the interest on borrowed money, plus no doubt some bills to fix things on it over time as well. The Multi does everytihng I want in a car ATM, it's got some character and it has all but stopped depreciating. So I turned the argument around; if I was willing to contmplate losing £2k per year into the ether in depreciation, then I should also be willing to spend that same £2k on parts and some labour for the Multi. It's only a one off expense (hopefully I won't have to shell out on it in a while now), I've gained something tangible for my investment (a pile of bits), plus I've had fun doing the work and seeing the Multi get sorted in the process. Daft logic? Maybe. Maybe not.
I suppose I should have done the jetwashing while all the suspension was off, but it wasn't too bad done with everything in place (apart from the wheels). You can also just about see that before I put the rear subframe back on, I put a coat of underseal around the bushes, making sure the join between the subframe and the bushes was well coated. As the subframe is bare metal in those holes, I figured that is the most likely place for the rust to start.
Did some local runs to check everything is ok, and took it for wheel alignment. I hadn't used the place I went to before, but the guy setting it up was very attentive and the piece of kit they used (Hunter something-or-other?) was interesting to watch in action. I voiced my concerns about the rear subframe and the potential for misalignment when fitting it, so he set up a four-wheel check. The number of adjustments that can be made on the Multi are pretty limited, so many of the readout figures were of the 'This is what you've got, if it's wrong, tough' type, but he did say that I appear to have the rear subframe on pretty straight, so I'm pleased about that much at least. Front tracking was miles out, so he set that up to the factory figure (not 0 degrees as has often been recommended on the forum). The front tyres haven't got bags of life left in them, so I figured I'd experiment with those and see how the inner shoulder wear goes, then decide what change to make (if any) when I get new rubber fitted.
The handling is great fun now. Like a cross between a go kart and one of those motorised bar stools. The tracking made a definite difference to the cornering feel. The Multi rides a fair bit higher on the new springs than the old. Can't say it really bothers me as it was lacking a bit in ground clearance before. We'll see how it settles after a few months.
As for the cost - yes, I have spent more than I wanted to, but six months ago I was thinking of buying another Alhambra. I decided against it, because I knew that (yet again) I would be consigning myself to around £2k loss per year in depreciation, plus the interest on borrowed money, plus no doubt some bills to fix things on it over time as well. The Multi does everytihng I want in a car ATM, it's got some character and it has all but stopped depreciating. So I turned the argument around; if I was willing to contmplate losing £2k per year into the ether in depreciation, then I should also be willing to spend that same £2k on parts and some labour for the Multi. It's only a one off expense (hopefully I won't have to shell out on it in a while now), I've gained something tangible for my investment (a pile of bits), plus I've had fun doing the work and seeing the Multi get sorted in the process. Daft logic? Maybe. Maybe not.
Great job, WMF.
Your logic seems sound to me, Multi's don't seem to rust, drivetrain is pretty robust, it's only the under engineered suspension that's the fly in the ointment.
You haven't factored in the added benefit of 'knowing your own car', against buying another. Notwithstanding the excellent work just done, you've done other work which (hopefully) means that future maintenance will be less.
One of the reasons, I bought another Multi rather than re-learn the weak points of another car, also I knew what to look for when inspecting it!
Your logic seems sound to me, Multi's don't seem to rust, drivetrain is pretty robust, it's only the under engineered suspension that's the fly in the ointment.
You haven't factored in the added benefit of 'knowing your own car', against buying another. Notwithstanding the excellent work just done, you've done other work which (hopefully) means that future maintenance will be less.
One of the reasons, I bought another Multi rather than re-learn the weak points of another car, also I knew what to look for when inspecting it!
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- 164
Well done WMF.
Loved following this thread... Photos are excellent and I totally understand your logic.
You have a top car now that's gonna be trouble free for a while and it ticks your boxes.
Wish I had the time to take mine off the road to fo the same.
For the time being it's just gonna be the 6 rear subframe bushes.
Clutch and timing belt have less than 5 k on them.
Marty.
Loved following this thread... Photos are excellent and I totally understand your logic.
You have a top car now that's gonna be trouble free for a while and it ticks your boxes.
Wish I had the time to take mine off the road to fo the same.
For the time being it's just gonna be the 6 rear subframe bushes.
Clutch and timing belt have less than 5 k on them.
Marty.
OP
OP
Shall we try this all again, this time without the dubious assistance of Photobucket? May that pond scum of a company rot in hell for the damage it has done to fora such as this one.
I can't guarantee I'll get exactly the photos that I originally placed against the text, but here we go:
Just about gathered all the bits together for my 'rolling restoration'. This is already on
(photo1)
and so are these:
(photo2)
Now it's time for this little lot:
(photo3)
I've also got front drop links, roll bar rubbers and I'm trying to sort something out for the rear subframe bushes. Subframe and front struts should be coming off tomorrow or Thursday. Hoping to get it all done in time for our hols.......
I can't guarantee I'll get exactly the photos that I originally placed against the text, but here we go:
Just about gathered all the bits together for my 'rolling restoration'. This is already on
(photo1)
and so are these:
(photo2)
Now it's time for this little lot:
(photo3)
I've also got front drop links, roll bar rubbers and I'm trying to sort something out for the rear subframe bushes. Subframe and front struts should be coming off tomorrow or Thursday. Hoping to get it all done in time for our hols.......
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I must confess I've had to wimp out on the clutch and DMF fitting. I'm so busy with work at the moment that I've had to pay someone to do it. Of all the fitting jobs, it was the one I was least looking forward to so I can't say I'm too disappointed. It's a job that's a lot easier for two people to do (I haven't got a second bod to hand) and on a ramp (I haven't got one of those either!).
I am looking forward to doing the suspension bits though. I plan to strip the rear subframe completely and have it shot blasted and powder coated. I still harbour ambitions of getting custom PU bushes made for it. Hopefully, doing the trailing arm bushes will be fairly easy with the arms removed from the car. I've already renewed the drums, shoes, cylinders, brake adjusters and brake fitting kits (springs etc). I'm not going anywhere near the ABS sensors (too fragile!).
There's a guy in a small workshop just up the road from me who's got a rather nice floor mounted hydraulic spring compressor so I can get the old struts apart and the new ones together without risking life and limb. I was thinking about getting PU bushes made for the front wishbones, but looking at the way those bushes are made I don't think that will be on.
(Photo4)
(Photo5)
I am looking forward to doing the suspension bits though. I plan to strip the rear subframe completely and have it shot blasted and powder coated. I still harbour ambitions of getting custom PU bushes made for it. Hopefully, doing the trailing arm bushes will be fairly easy with the arms removed from the car. I've already renewed the drums, shoes, cylinders, brake adjusters and brake fitting kits (springs etc). I'm not going anywhere near the ABS sensors (too fragile!).
There's a guy in a small workshop just up the road from me who's got a rather nice floor mounted hydraulic spring compressor so I can get the old struts apart and the new ones together without risking life and limb. I was thinking about getting PU bushes made for the front wishbones, but looking at the way those bushes are made I don't think that will be on.
(Photo4)
(Photo5)
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Only Bilstein B4 are available for the Multipla. Originally I tried to go with Koni dampers, but gave up - they would have to be built at the factory. They didn't appear to know which drawings to work to, they only supply the damper insert, so the original damper leg would have to be used and the bottom of it drilled to accept the cartridge, and they couldn't give any idea of how long it would take. The Bilsteins were a doddle; ordered from Balance Motorsport (they were the best price I could find) and a few days later they turned up, direct from the Bilstein factory in Germany.
Clutch, DMF and timing belt kit (inc. water pump) were done without a problem by Optima Motors. To all the folks with a small oil leak from the bottom of their clutch bell housing - the crank oil seal was leaking. It's a big diameter seal, so the rotation speed at the seal tip will be high, leading to high wear rates. The old one looks tired. The oil seal on the gearbox side was fine (and much smaller diameter). They're not cheap (about £30) but in the overall scheme of a clutch and DMF replacement, worth doing while it's apart.
It will only cost me a tenner to get the rear subframe shot blasted and it will be a far better job than I could ever do with a cup brush and sander. I didn't get started on it today (chucked it down with rain this afternoon and didn't fancy being out in that!). Will be on to it tomorrow if it's dry though. I really want to get the PU bushes made for that subframe!
Yes, the calipers were refurbed by Bigg Red. Cost was about £125 including postage both ways. I sent my own calipers up to be rebuilt rather than exchange. All new seals, pistons, slider bearings, and the carriers were blasted and recoated as well. They did a very nice job. The steering rack was completely rebuilt with shimming checked and all seals, bellows and track rod arms/ends replaced with new parts. I had trouble finding somewhere that could do the rack - took it to a company in Bristol in the end.
Finally, mine's a round nose
The square-nose isn't fit to wear the badge
Clutch, DMF and timing belt kit (inc. water pump) were done without a problem by Optima Motors. To all the folks with a small oil leak from the bottom of their clutch bell housing - the crank oil seal was leaking. It's a big diameter seal, so the rotation speed at the seal tip will be high, leading to high wear rates. The old one looks tired. The oil seal on the gearbox side was fine (and much smaller diameter). They're not cheap (about £30) but in the overall scheme of a clutch and DMF replacement, worth doing while it's apart.
It will only cost me a tenner to get the rear subframe shot blasted and it will be a far better job than I could ever do with a cup brush and sander. I didn't get started on it today (chucked it down with rain this afternoon and didn't fancy being out in that!). Will be on to it tomorrow if it's dry though. I really want to get the PU bushes made for that subframe!
Yes, the calipers were refurbed by Bigg Red. Cost was about £125 including postage both ways. I sent my own calipers up to be rebuilt rather than exchange. All new seals, pistons, slider bearings, and the carriers were blasted and recoated as well. They did a very nice job. The steering rack was completely rebuilt with shimming checked and all seals, bellows and track rod arms/ends replaced with new parts. I had trouble finding somewhere that could do the rack - took it to a company in Bristol in the end.
Finally, mine's a round nose
OP
OP
It'll be interesting to see what the Bilsteins are like. I'm not after firmer damping, just better control than the tired originals I've just removed. Rear subframe, both front struts and wishbones removed this afternoon. All went pretty smoothly - only two small bolts got sheared, everything else behaved itself. My Multi is now sat on the drive on four axle stands. A little bit of Toxteth in the Wiltshire countryside
.
DS2500 are good, but as you say they are scary money. Probably overkill for a Multi. Interesting that you've got greenstuff though. I was wondering about a set of those. I had a good quality set of grooved discs on my old Mondeo ST and I will never get another set - they make a real groaning racket under braking and eat pads for lunch.
I'm not at all impressed by the Touran. Way over-priced SH and a horrible step in the floor with rear seats removed. They're nowhere near as well thought out as the Sharalaxy and don't drive particularly well either. If only the Multi had a more potent diesel; it does feel gutless compared to some of the other diesels I've had. At least it revs failry sweetly (for a diesel).
DS2500 are good, but as you say they are scary money. Probably overkill for a Multi. Interesting that you've got greenstuff though. I was wondering about a set of those. I had a good quality set of grooved discs on my old Mondeo ST and I will never get another set - they make a real groaning racket under braking and eat pads for lunch.
I'm not at all impressed by the Touran. Way over-priced SH and a horrible step in the floor with rear seats removed. They're nowhere near as well thought out as the Sharalaxy and don't drive particularly well either. If only the Multi had a more potent diesel; it does feel gutless compared to some of the other diesels I've had. At least it revs failry sweetly (for a diesel).
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One of my new discs has been mullered. Not by me but I've got a pretty good idea who. They've only been on for a couple of thousand miles so I'm not too happy
. However, they were the cheap discs from a2z on ebay and wasn't overly impressed with them, so now's the time to replace them I guess. Not sure which ones to buy. EBC have a good reputation but they're not cheap; I'm open to suggestions!
Anyway, here's a photo or two. Not much done this weekend because of other commitments, but hope to finish stripping the subframe tomorrow evening and take it for coating on Tuesday. Despite the front subframe bushes being completely shot, I ended up having to burn them out because they simply wouldn't budge. The rear ones were simpler - a few belts with a club hammer and they popped out.
(Photo6)
(Photo7)
(Photo8)
(Photo9)
BTW, for anyone that's interested, these are the correct measurements for the rear subframe bush holes:
Front - dia.64.5, rim depth 13.5mm, fixing bolt M12 fine (1.25 pitch) x 90 long approx.
Rear - dia. 74.5, rim depth 12.5mm, fixing bolt M12 fine (1.25 pitch) x 100 long approx.
There's a hole in the bottom of the (hollow) swing arms which lets crud in up to the back of the bearing spacer. This is a stupid design as other than this the inside of the swingarms would be a sealed void which would help to preserve the bearings. These holes are dia. 29 or 29.5. I'm going to see if I can find a hole bung for them.
One other thing - the wires from the rear ABS sensors can be unplugged. I you trace the wire forwards, it goes through a grommeted hole in the floor/sill. If you remove the plastic threshold trim in the rear doorways on both sides, you'll find the connector. Unplug this, prize the grommet out of its' hole and then you can pull the whole lot out under the car. I unhooked the two exhaust rubbers, disconnected the brake lines, released the handbrake cables at the yoke where the three cables meet, unplugged the ABS sensors on both sides and then dropped the whole lot down and dragged subframe and all out from the back of the car. Took two of us less than 45 minutes. I was amazed - thought it was going to take a lot longer than that
.
One question - how do I get the front ARB out? Can't figure out what to undo
- the bolt heads seem to be hidden!
Anyway, here's a photo or two. Not much done this weekend because of other commitments, but hope to finish stripping the subframe tomorrow evening and take it for coating on Tuesday. Despite the front subframe bushes being completely shot, I ended up having to burn them out because they simply wouldn't budge. The rear ones were simpler - a few belts with a club hammer and they popped out.
(Photo6)
(Photo7)
(Photo8)
(Photo9)
BTW, for anyone that's interested, these are the correct measurements for the rear subframe bush holes:
Front - dia.64.5, rim depth 13.5mm, fixing bolt M12 fine (1.25 pitch) x 90 long approx.
Rear - dia. 74.5, rim depth 12.5mm, fixing bolt M12 fine (1.25 pitch) x 100 long approx.
There's a hole in the bottom of the (hollow) swing arms which lets crud in up to the back of the bearing spacer. This is a stupid design as other than this the inside of the swingarms would be a sealed void which would help to preserve the bearings. These holes are dia. 29 or 29.5. I'm going to see if I can find a hole bung for them.
One other thing - the wires from the rear ABS sensors can be unplugged. I you trace the wire forwards, it goes through a grommeted hole in the floor/sill. If you remove the plastic threshold trim in the rear doorways on both sides, you'll find the connector. Unplug this, prize the grommet out of its' hole and then you can pull the whole lot out under the car. I unhooked the two exhaust rubbers, disconnected the brake lines, released the handbrake cables at the yoke where the three cables meet, unplugged the ABS sensors on both sides and then dropped the whole lot down and dragged subframe and all out from the back of the car. Took two of us less than 45 minutes. I was amazed - thought it was going to take a lot longer than that
One question - how do I get the front ARB out? Can't figure out what to undo
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OP
Quick update. Some photos of the rear subframe:
First up, as removed from car. Bump stops, top mount for dampers all pretty sound. All four subframe mounts are shot (fronts more so than rears). Rear mountings have already been removed in this piccy.
(Photo10)
Next up, stripped subframe, ready to go for paint stripping and shot blast. The bump stops are a pain to get off (think I got lucky there judging by the number of people complaining about theirs coming adrift in other threads) but all fittings can be removed without destroying them if you take care. The pressed steel cones that the bump stops fit to are a thinner gauge steel than the rest of the suframe - check them for rust holes. Generally, lots of surface rust but nothing too serious. Shot blasting will reveal all however.
I'm taking it for cleaning up and coating later today, which will take around a week. Also ordered new pinch bolts for the front struts and wishbone/front hubs (not cheap, and MOQ of 5 pieces, which is a pain). All the old ones were slightly stretched. The nuts for same are extortionate (over £5 each with the VAT
, so make sure you don't loose them) so they'll be going back on with threadlock as they're in good nick anyway.
(Photo11)
(Photo12)
(Photo13)
First up, as removed from car. Bump stops, top mount for dampers all pretty sound. All four subframe mounts are shot (fronts more so than rears). Rear mountings have already been removed in this piccy.
(Photo10)
Next up, stripped subframe, ready to go for paint stripping and shot blast. The bump stops are a pain to get off (think I got lucky there judging by the number of people complaining about theirs coming adrift in other threads) but all fittings can be removed without destroying them if you take care. The pressed steel cones that the bump stops fit to are a thinner gauge steel than the rest of the suframe - check them for rust holes. Generally, lots of surface rust but nothing too serious. Shot blasting will reveal all however.
I'm taking it for cleaning up and coating later today, which will take around a week. Also ordered new pinch bolts for the front struts and wishbone/front hubs (not cheap, and MOQ of 5 pieces, which is a pain). All the old ones were slightly stretched. The nuts for same are extortionate (over £5 each with the VAT
(Photo11)
(Photo12)
(Photo13)
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Quick progress update. I got the subframe back from the powder coaters yesterday (Thursday). It wasn't the usual place that I used, but they were recommended to me because they do a lot of car restoration work. They weren't cheap, but I'm really impressed by the quality of the job they've done. The prep was obviously very thorough - the surface finish is lovely, with the exception of those areas that had been pitted by rust, but all of the rust was blasted out. They also linished all the sharp edges before coating, so there isn't any thinning of the finish at corners etc. Perhaps the best sign is the amount of effort I had to put in to remove the coating from the inner faces of the subframe bush holes - it was a real bar steward to get off. I also got to see the grey primer powder coat that they told me they had used. It's in a different league to the oem finish.
Anyway, on to the pictures. I fitted the subframe bushes this afternoon. In the end, I cooked up a collection of bits and pieces to make a simple press:
(Photo14)
I bought three bits of tube from a local steel stockholder to fit around the mouting faces of the bushes and press on the outer body flange. They charged me £12 (bloody rip-off) for bits that they'd normally chuck in the bin. The jobsworth manning the tube saw couldn't have cut them more on the p1ss if he had tried. Needless to say, they won't be getting a Christmas card from me this year
. I then slit the tubes along their length to ease them around the bush flanges (above and below the subframe) and drilled a couple of old bits of angle iron to act as the cross bearers. A long M12 bolt goes through the whole lot (including the bush) and the nut tightened to press the bushes into place, like this:
(Photo15)
I can post the sizes for bits bits of tube if anyone's interested.
It worked a treat. I didn't have to file the holes for the larger (rear) bushes out much beyond just removing the powder coat. The bushes are an almost perfect press fit. As you can see, the force applied bent the angle iron a little, but wasn't anywhere near enough to stretch the M12 bolt. The holes for the front bushes had to be filed out a little more. I went for an interference fit of 0.15-0.25mm and that was just about right. I used a smear of PTFE lube on the bushes to help them into place.
(Photo16)
All in all, I'm pretty happy with things so far. One small annoyance is that I pressed one of the larger bushes into place rotated about 20 degrees out from the correct orientation in a bit of a senior moment (the larger bushes are directional for stiffness). Tomorrow I'll fit the trailing arm bearings, springs, dampers and all the other little fittings (including warming up some waxoyl to run down the inside of the cross tube), then it will be ready for putting back on the Multi. Assembled with trailing arms etc, it's a heavy lump so I'm hoping to get a local mechanic to give me a hand with that in the week, so I'll move on to the front end.....
Anyway, on to the pictures. I fitted the subframe bushes this afternoon. In the end, I cooked up a collection of bits and pieces to make a simple press:
(Photo14)
I bought three bits of tube from a local steel stockholder to fit around the mouting faces of the bushes and press on the outer body flange. They charged me £12 (bloody rip-off) for bits that they'd normally chuck in the bin. The jobsworth manning the tube saw couldn't have cut them more on the p1ss if he had tried. Needless to say, they won't be getting a Christmas card from me this year
(Photo15)
I can post the sizes for bits bits of tube if anyone's interested.
It worked a treat. I didn't have to file the holes for the larger (rear) bushes out much beyond just removing the powder coat. The bushes are an almost perfect press fit. As you can see, the force applied bent the angle iron a little, but wasn't anywhere near enough to stretch the M12 bolt. The holes for the front bushes had to be filed out a little more. I went for an interference fit of 0.15-0.25mm and that was just about right. I used a smear of PTFE lube on the bushes to help them into place.
(Photo16)
All in all, I'm pretty happy with things so far. One small annoyance is that I pressed one of the larger bushes into place rotated about 20 degrees out from the correct orientation in a bit of a senior moment (the larger bushes are directional for stiffness). Tomorrow I'll fit the trailing arm bearings, springs, dampers and all the other little fittings (including warming up some waxoyl to run down the inside of the cross tube), then it will be ready for putting back on the Multi. Assembled with trailing arms etc, it's a heavy lump so I'm hoping to get a local mechanic to give me a hand with that in the week, so I'll move on to the front end.....
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Another day, another dollar. Todays progress:
Fitted new swing arm bearings. Judging by the tales of grief recounted on the forum, I think I got pretty lucky with removing the old swing arm bolts and bearings. Both arms were removed and the bearings knocked out in about 10 minutes. It was a LOT easier to do this with the subframe dropped. I would have spent a lot longer p1ssing about with the subframe left in situ. Anyway all that was a few days ago and since then I've cleaned the swing arms up and painted them. If I had managed to remove the ABS sensors, I would have got them shot blasted and powder coated along with the subframe, but I know the sensors are Not To Be Messed With unless you fancy fitting new ones.
The swing arm bearing kit is an odd set up (to me anyway):
(Photo 16)
Left to right - Bolt head (to outside of car when all's in place), washer (should be under the nut at the other end when assembled), a very hard metal shouldered washer, a rubber grommet/seal that the shouldered washer sits in when all is assembled, a metal bearing sleeve (the shiny metal tube - this runs the full width of the arm), one taper roller bearing (still in its' placcy bag), a central plastic spacer/sleeve (the white thing in the middle). Then it all repeats again in reverse order as you go to the right of the photo, except there's a nyloc nut at extreme right and not a bolt head. The outer part of the right hand bearing is removed so that you can see the rollers.
The first thing to do is to seat the outer of the taper bearings in the trailing arm. I did this with a large socket of about the same diameter as the bearing, and a hide mallet. You can see the bearing outer and the shoulder that it needs to be driven back onto here:
(Photo17)
You can also see the grease nipple I fitted to the swing arm in line with this shoulder (thanks to BikeDoc for this idea
). Hopefully this will stop the bloody thing seizing up or wearing in future. Once it's driven fully home and the white plastic spacer fitted (don't forget to put this in BEFORE fitting the other bearing outer as it gets trapped in place by them), you see this:
(Photo18)
I cut away a small portion of the white spacer to allow the grease nipple to feed grease to the bearing. This spacer is all that seals the inner faces of the bearings from the elements as there's a fair-sized hole in the bottom of the swing arms that will allow water, road salt etc up inside it. The spacer is actually pinched in place by the seated bearings.
Then you need to wind the bearing inners onto the metal bearing sleeve. They are an interference fit so need some force to seat them. The swing arm bolt isn't long enough to allow you to do both bearings in one operation, so you have to fit one then remove the nyloc nut, insert the part-assemble inner/shaft into the swing arm and then seat the second bearing, like so:
(Photo19)
Once that has been wound in nice and tight to seat everything, the nyloc and bolt can be removed and the swing arm put back in place on the subframe. Once I'd got all the cleaned up bits refiited, along with the new springs and dampers, it ended up looking something like this:
(Photo20)
(Photo21)
But for some horrible metal-strapped retaining cliips that fit to the swing arms and one of two small nylon cable cliips, this is now ready for refitting to my Multi. Roll on Monday! I like the ARB installation and design - the centre span of the bar is pretty much in line with the swing arm pivot bolts, so the twisting moment is on the bar axis. Very neat. Also note the tube bungs I fitted to the large holes in the swing arms - ones for 1 1/4" tube fit really well. I'll keep an eye on them to make sure they're not trapping muck inside the swing arms (which would be even worse than having the hole there in the first place) but I can't see anywhere else that dirt could get in.
Fitted new swing arm bearings. Judging by the tales of grief recounted on the forum, I think I got pretty lucky with removing the old swing arm bolts and bearings. Both arms were removed and the bearings knocked out in about 10 minutes. It was a LOT easier to do this with the subframe dropped. I would have spent a lot longer p1ssing about with the subframe left in situ. Anyway all that was a few days ago and since then I've cleaned the swing arms up and painted them. If I had managed to remove the ABS sensors, I would have got them shot blasted and powder coated along with the subframe, but I know the sensors are Not To Be Messed With unless you fancy fitting new ones.
The swing arm bearing kit is an odd set up (to me anyway):
(Photo 16)
Left to right - Bolt head (to outside of car when all's in place), washer (should be under the nut at the other end when assembled), a very hard metal shouldered washer, a rubber grommet/seal that the shouldered washer sits in when all is assembled, a metal bearing sleeve (the shiny metal tube - this runs the full width of the arm), one taper roller bearing (still in its' placcy bag), a central plastic spacer/sleeve (the white thing in the middle). Then it all repeats again in reverse order as you go to the right of the photo, except there's a nyloc nut at extreme right and not a bolt head. The outer part of the right hand bearing is removed so that you can see the rollers.
The first thing to do is to seat the outer of the taper bearings in the trailing arm. I did this with a large socket of about the same diameter as the bearing, and a hide mallet. You can see the bearing outer and the shoulder that it needs to be driven back onto here:
(Photo17)
You can also see the grease nipple I fitted to the swing arm in line with this shoulder (thanks to BikeDoc for this idea
(Photo18)
I cut away a small portion of the white spacer to allow the grease nipple to feed grease to the bearing. This spacer is all that seals the inner faces of the bearings from the elements as there's a fair-sized hole in the bottom of the swing arms that will allow water, road salt etc up inside it. The spacer is actually pinched in place by the seated bearings.
Then you need to wind the bearing inners onto the metal bearing sleeve. They are an interference fit so need some force to seat them. The swing arm bolt isn't long enough to allow you to do both bearings in one operation, so you have to fit one then remove the nyloc nut, insert the part-assemble inner/shaft into the swing arm and then seat the second bearing, like so:
(Photo19)
Once that has been wound in nice and tight to seat everything, the nyloc and bolt can be removed and the swing arm put back in place on the subframe. Once I'd got all the cleaned up bits refiited, along with the new springs and dampers, it ended up looking something like this:
(Photo20)
(Photo21)
But for some horrible metal-strapped retaining cliips that fit to the swing arms and one of two small nylon cable cliips, this is now ready for refitting to my Multi. Roll on Monday! I like the ARB installation and design - the centre span of the bar is pretty much in line with the swing arm pivot bolts, so the twisting moment is on the bar axis. Very neat. Also note the tube bungs I fitted to the large holes in the swing arms - ones for 1 1/4" tube fit really well. I'll keep an eye on them to make sure they're not trapping muck inside the swing arms (which would be even worse than having the hole there in the first place) but I can't see anywhere else that dirt could get in.
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Next up, front struts. Relatively straightforward as most of the bits are new, and I ducked the problem of compressing the springs by getting the local workshop to put them together. £20 well spent!
(Photo21)
(Photo22)
The only parts that I've reused are the rubber spring seats and the damper rod gaiters. Considering they're over 8 years old, all still in pretty good condition. There's quite a gap between the Bilstein damper body and the gaiter (about 5-6mm all round) so I'm trying to think of a neat way of closing that up a bit to stop road crud getting on to the damper rod.
(Photo21)
(Photo22)
The only parts that I've reused are the rubber spring seats and the damper rod gaiters. Considering they're over 8 years old, all still in pretty good condition. There's quite a gap between the Bilstein damper body and the gaiter (about 5-6mm all round) so I'm trying to think of a neat way of closing that up a bit to stop road crud getting on to the damper rod.
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Well, it's back on the road, and all feels fine. Very taught handling now. Brakes and dampers still need to bed in, so I'm taking it easy for a couple of hundred miles. The front end knock has gone as well.
I didn't get many pictures as the camera batteries ran out, but I plan to take the wheels back off tomorrow to clean them up so will get some then.
This shows the connector (centre of pic) and grommet ( to the left, poking out from under the carpet felt) for the rear ABS sensor cable.
(Photo23)
Make a note of the routing of this cable under the car, as it's a bit fiddly to put back.
A couple of the front end. Much tidier than it was. There's not much to say about fitting the struts. Once built up (as shown in previous photos), fitting them to the car is very straightforward - three bolts through the inner wing for the top mount, and a pair of pinch bolts to connect the bottom of the strut to the hub.
(Photo24)
I'll post my thoughts on the Pagid discs and pads when I've put a few miles on them. I'm also taking it for 4 wheel alignment. The rear subframe has a complete lack of alignment pins or locations. The whole thing can be moved around a lot (certainly enough to affect tracking) as the four mounting bolts are tightened - I don't see how you're supposed to get it squared up.
I didn't get many pictures as the camera batteries ran out, but I plan to take the wheels back off tomorrow to clean them up so will get some then.
This shows the connector (centre of pic) and grommet ( to the left, poking out from under the carpet felt) for the rear ABS sensor cable.
(Photo23)
Make a note of the routing of this cable under the car, as it's a bit fiddly to put back.
A couple of the front end. Much tidier than it was. There's not much to say about fitting the struts. Once built up (as shown in previous photos), fitting them to the car is very straightforward - three bolts through the inner wing for the top mount, and a pair of pinch bolts to connect the bottom of the strut to the hub.
(Photo24)
I'll post my thoughts on the Pagid discs and pads when I've put a few miles on them. I'm also taking it for 4 wheel alignment. The rear subframe has a complete lack of alignment pins or locations. The whole thing can be moved around a lot (certainly enough to affect tracking) as the four mounting bolts are tightened - I don't see how you're supposed to get it squared up.
