Technical Leaking hard fuel line in interior

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Technical Leaking hard fuel line in interior

Slotman

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So after my 79 spider slept 12 years in the back of my shop I recently got it out and replaced timing belt, water pump, tensioner, carburator, fuel pump ect...was excited when it started right up and ran smoothly as it should...things were going too good and I expected issues to pop up, sure enough the first thing was a horribly leaking transmission cooler line, (mine is an automatic), I'm in the process of making one since there doesn't seem to be one available on the planet, now today after smelling gas I lifted the carpet on the driver's side to find it soaked in gas...I'm not sure if my pictures show the extent of the wetness...first question is since there are 2 hard lines and one is obviously the fuel feed line, what is the other one? The vent line?, also has anyone ever dealt with this before and could offer advice of where and what to replace as far as where the interior hard line stops and starts...? Also would 5/16 hard line be acceptable? Are there replacement lines of this particular piece available? I wonder why fiat opted to run the fuel line thru the interior rather than under the floor? Thanks in advance for advice! Terry
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I have used large bore Kunifer (copper/nickel) brake pipe for fuel line in the past and of course in the really old days pure copper fuel pipe was used as standard.
If your vehicle is fuel injected then a flow and return fuel system may account for two lines.
Like you I much prefer fuel lines on the chassis rail clearly visible under the car.
Hidden inside makes for problems when welding older cars also.:)
Years ago we had a bodyshop do some work on a Hillman Imp car and fitting back trim they drilled through the side panel, next thing coolant was pouring out as the manufacturers had run the coolant from the rear engine to a heater radiator at the front inside the panels.:)
When fitting a diesel engine to a petrol Peugeot 504 I needed a return fuel line and used suitable hard white plastic fuel tubing from local motor factors.
Of course it all depends on suitable fittings at each end to stand the system pressure.
 
So after my 79 spider slept 12 years in the back of my shop I recently got it out and replaced timing belt, water pump, tensioner, carburator, fuel pump ect...was excited when it started right up and ran smoothly as it should...things were going too good and I expected issues to pop up, sure enough the first thing was a horribly leaking transmission cooler line, (mine is an automatic), I'm in the process of making one since there doesn't seem to be one available on the planet, now today after smelling gas I lifted the carpet on the driver's side to find it soaked in gas...I'm not sure if my pictures show the extent of the wetness...first question is since there are 2 hard lines and one is obviously the fuel feed line, what is the other one? The vent line?, also has anyone ever dealt with this before and could offer advice of where and what to replace as far as where the interior hard line stops and starts...? Also would 5/16 hard line be acceptable? Are there replacement lines of this particular piece available? I wonder why fiat opted to run the fuel line thru the interior rather than under the floor? Thanks in advance for advice! TerryView attachment 465331View attachment 465332
There is a discussion on this on n another thread
I had the same problem, 3 bodged repairs hidden under the insulation and carpet.
I replaced mine with 10mm copper covered with 1mm thick PU.. Its what gets used in microbore heating systems or for fuel supply in kerosene based heating systems
I guess they ran the lines inside as the car is low to the ground and vulnerable to damage. I run twin 40’s and have no return line (this proved unnecessary when dyno testing!)
I also run 100 octane fuel, 124BC mentioned concerns over copper/ethanol compatibility. If the fuel has high ethanol E85, you really need stainless steel but this is difficult to form/shape
If you run a regular carb or FI I would fit the return line, it also prevents vapour locks
The routing is easy to follow once you lift the carpet
 
Thanks for your advice guys! What a gooey mess it makes combining fuel with the floor undercoat! Hard to get the stuff off if it gets on ya...I think i might go with the coated steel hard line on Bayless as well as their stock appearing braided soft line and replace it all...sure not looking forward to dealing with accessing the fuel pump again but hey, just did it so should be easier this time...
 
Thanks for your advice guys! What a gooey mess it makes combining fuel with the floor undercoat! Hard to get the stuff off if it gets on ya...I think i might go with the coated steel hard line on Bayless as well as their stock appearing braided soft line and replace it all...sure not looking forward to dealing with accessing the fuel pump again but hey, just did it so should be easier this time...
My old accountant had a twin fuel tank Jag years ago and the petrol pump leaked into the spare wheel well destroying the tyre.:)
 
Twink80, when you were reinstalling your new fuel hard line did you start where it passes thru the firewall and connects to the soft line going to the fuel pump first? Or did you start at the back first? Also I'm assuming I'm going to need to remove the drivers seat as well as the back seat? Thanks again for your advice!
 
Twink80, when you were reinstalling your new fuel hard line did you start where it passes thru the firewall and connects to the soft line going to the fuel pump first? Or did you start at the back first? Also I'm assuming I'm going to need to remove the drivers seat as well as the back seat? Thanks again for your advice!
Hi
Yes you need to remove the seats.
I started inside the cabin, got the pupe through the front bulkhead with some spare, then formed the pipe down the bulkhead to the footwell
Next I pushed the pipe through the resr floor to the underside
You might want to take the fuel tank out as access to the hardlines is tricky behind the tank
I used rubber lined metal p clips bolted through the floor with M6 bolts about every 12-14ins ( see I can do metric and imperial dimensions! 😂)
I didn’t swage the ends of the hardline as its under suction not pressure, but the flexi fuel hose needs to be a good fit and securely clamped
Fit a disposable in line fuel filter at the tank end, space is tight but its dosble
Regarding pipe sizes replace like with like if they are available locally
Flexi hoses need to be Ethanol compatible ifyou run that fuel. Personally I run 100 octane. None of the supposed Ethanol compatible hoses ever lasted very long sonow I just buy better fuel and less replacement hoses!
 
Thank you sir! Great advice! I think I have all I need to know now, i will see how it goes at the tank...I did this same thing to my vw beetle a few years ago but 1st time on a fiat...when I think about it the hard fuel lines running thru my interior only lasted 46 years...I might just ask fiat if it's covered under warranty! :)
 
@Slotman
Some fuel hard lines and a metal fuel filter that you've probably already seen @ Midwest-Bayless:-

Fiat fuelline 7-8mm coated_screenshot-1745477601107.pngFiat 6mm hard fuel line_screenshot-1745477468628.pngFiat 8mm fuel metal line_screenshot-1745477723746.pngFiat metal fuel filter 7mm_screenshot-1745477833460.png


As regards the possible difficulty of installing hard fuel lines, I prefer to use Kunifer (aka Cunifer) Copper/Nickel tubing as it's corrosion-proof, doesn't have to be frequently supported/clipped as needed with copper tube, and most importantly, is much easier to form bends in (by hand, if needs be) in situ. There are inexpensive pipe/tube bending pliers available to deal with any required tight bends or you can use e.g. a suitably sized socket to use as a former to avoid the tube collapsing.

For Euro models, Fiat used 8mm tube for the fuel feed from the tank to the pump and carb and 6mm tube for the return line form carb to tank but I'm not sure about U.S. spec models, especially on cars fitted with emissions equipment, so this is just a suggestion.

Incidentally, on the 124 Sedan (Saloon) and 124 Sport Coupe, (which had much the same ride height as the Spider), Fiat ran hard fuel lines, both feed and return, underneath the floor-pan, the metal pipes were routed from the mechanical fuel pump and the carb return to the firewall and then passed under the transmission tunnel (clipped at intervals) to one side of the trans. then above the driveshaft and at the rear, they passed through grommeted holes into the trunk where they were attached to the fuel tank. Later models that had an electric fuel pump (located in the trunk), had both feed and return metal pipes run from the carb to the trunk.
Fiat used a type of 'nylon?' fuel pipe, black in color, inside the passenger cabin on later models than the 124, - I wonder if this type of 'plastic' pipe is available or if similar from another car manufacturer could be used instead of metal pipe?

I don't like fitting a fuel filter in a suction line e.g. from tank to pump, ideally the filter should be under pressure so should be fitted after the mechanical pump at the engine or after an electrical pump if it's mounted in the trunk.

Be careful with your choice of metal tube size if changing from the original sizes, doing so will cause issues in then connecting them to the various pipe stubs on the fuel pump, carb. and at the tank.
Be careful about opting to use inch sizes to replace a metric sizes- while 8mm is essentially 5/16 inch (5/16" is actually 7.95mm if you want to be fussy), 6mm is not the same as 1/4" (1/4" = 6.35mm).
There is not a lot of 'give' in reinforced 'rubber' type fuel hoses, so you can't really 'force' them over a swaged end brass stub, nor do you want a loose fit e.g. using 1/4" (=6.35mm) hose on 6mm pipe, you should not rely on a hose clip to squeeze the 'rubber' hose down to form a seal to the metal pipe.
A little thought can save a lot of headaches later on e.g. after you've bent & installed the new metal pipe and then attempt to fit new 'rubber' hose and connect everything up.

The reason I put rubber in inverted commas is because I'm using it as a catch-all term for the various different types of 'rubber', I'm not sure of what works and is reliable when used on modern gasoline containing Ethanol and other chemicals.
Gates used to do excellent fuel resistant 'rubber' hose but I've had some issues. I think I'd seek advice at your local auto parts suppliers and then check out their recommendations. It may well be that we'll just have to regard replacing flexible fuel hoses as an occasional service item just like timing belt renewal...
In the past, Fiat used to use a type of 'plastic' flexible translucent hose made by Cavis (they're still around), it was a nice green/blue color. I believe it's still available but may not be the same as the original or as long-lived as the original hose (lots of discussion on various Ferrari forums about old vs new Cavis hose and whether it's Ferrari Classiche approved, (such discussion tends to give me a headache....).
 
Great advice! Thank you sir!! I went ahead and ordered the Bayless coated stock 8mm line and I do have a couple of different bender tools, since I'm a retired machinist my brain is stuck measuring in thousands of an inch, 8mm is .315 od, and 5/16 fuel line is .312 I'd, so I'm going to try that first...if it doesn't seal I will order the stock metric rubber line :)
 
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I grew up with inch sizes, when I started working, first on Japanese motorcycles and later Italian cars, I found I had to convert the metric measurement back into the inch equivalent in order to understand/visualise what size it actually was, otherwise it was just a meaningless (to me) number. So, for me, spark plug gaps were always 25 thou, points gap was 12 -16 thou, fuel consumption was in mpg, tire pressures were always in psi. I still, to this day, have trouble thinking in bar for tire pressures and 'liters per 100 kilometer' for fuel consumption. Over here, since c. 2004, car speedometers have been required to display in Km. I always switch the displays to show miles, mph, and MPG :)
 
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