Technical Is it REALLY necessary to change the timing belt?!

[pashtun]

Hi All,

Just joined the FF as am getting a 2005 plate 1.2 Dynamic Skydome Panda later this week!

Question is, has 55k on the clock, pretty decent service history but no record of the belt being changed, nor pump etc.

Dealer not interested really but is doing a small service before delivery....I think I know the answer but is it:

a) Time to do the belt?! It's 5 yrs or 72k miles I think?
b) If so best to find an indy to do it rather than dealer at this age?

Also, small point, the retaining clip on the front sunroof has snapped off so the blind won't stay closed, anyone know if you can remove it and install a new clip?!

Many thanks in advance!

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi.
Look at the hose on radiator.. below RH headlamp.

If its got a jubilee clip on .. then the coolant has almost certainly been changed.

If that is factory sealed clip.. then you may have some work to be done.

The belt is relatively cheap and simple.

Maybe use it for a couple of weeks.. check the fluid levels hold..and that the heater works properly.

Then you will know what is required .

Could be chain of;

Coolant.
Thermostat.
Waterpump.
Belt kit.

Charlie 2004 panda

 

[DaveMcT]

Use an Indy to do the cam belt. His/her costs will be a fraction of a main dealer's rates.

If it's a 1.2/60 8V, you don't "have to" have the job done. The car will simply stop when the belt fails. Fit a new belt and all will be well. The snag is that these things usually happen on the M1 fast lane at rush hour.

Make sure the water pump and auxiliary belt are done at the same time.

 

[Eklipze3k]

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii...elt-due-replacement-1-2-engine.html?p=4372660

 

[g8rpi]

You don't have to change the timing belt, you can wait and change the engine instead

More seriously yes it is due. Ask the dealer (if they are a Fiat dealer) to do it as part of the deal otherwise budget for in fairly short time.


Robert G8RPI.

 

[koalar]

Hi.
Look at the hose on radiator.. below RH headlamp.

If its got a jubilee clip on .. then the coolant has almost certainly been changed.

If that is factory sealed clip.. then you may have some work to be done.

The belt is relatively cheap and simple.

Maybe use it for a couple of weeks.. check the fluid levels hold..and that the heater works properly.

Then you will know what is required .

Could be chain of;

Coolant.
Thermostat.
Waterpump.
Belt kit.

Charlie 2004 panda

bottom hose on my 1.1 06 and 1.2 05 are both of a quick release type, no need to undo any clips.

 

[Theleman]

I have done timing belt replacement my Panda Eco 1.1 at 50k miles with regular service by a Fiat dealer, and still it wasn't cheap.

But was advised to get it done, because as said above, if it snapped, it will happen in some remote area causing much trouble to myself or busy motorway causing chaos to traffic.

I used to also get told long time ago, if timing belt snaps when being driven, then engine will be destroyed, but now I think it is to do with cam belt or something else, not timing belt.

 

[Eklipze3k]

cam belt or something else, not timing belt.

Same thing Timing belt synchronises the timing between the crank and cam to open the valves at the right time (and thus stop them smashing into the pistons)

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I have done timing belt replacement my Panda Eco 1.1 at 50k miles with regular service by a Fiat dealer, and still it wasn't cheap.

But was advised to get it done, because as said above, if it snapped, it will happen in some remote area causing much trouble to myself or busy motorway causing chaos to traffic.

I used to also get told long time ago, if timing belt snaps when being driven, then engine will be destroyed, but now I think it is to do with cam belt or something else, not timing belt.

Hi Theleman. This problem with engines being damaged/written off if you don't change the timing belt is caused by the camshaft very quickly stopping rotating because it's drive has been removed but the flywheel will keep the crankshaft rotating for a number of revolutions after the cam has stopped. When the cam stops it will be holding some of the valves open, so the piston/s crash into them and do a lot of collateral damage. Normally, as a piston nears the top of it's stroke the valves will be closed - or nearly closed - so they are not "sticking out" into the piston's space.

On all of the diesels I've worked on and many modern petrol units the valves, when open, protrude into the cylinder to such an extent that the pistons will contact them if the cam "phasing" is lost - as when the belt breaks. This is largely because cylinder heads have quite flat combustion chambers these days so the valves project out into the bore space when open. Many older petrol engines were designed with combustion chambers in the head so the valves didn't project into the piston's space much at all so the valves and pistons couldn't collide. This is a very engine version specific thing. You can't just lift a car's bonnet and tell by looking at the engine! - unfortunately.

Our little "FIRE" engines were originally all "safe" designs. My 1992 999cc Panda Parade certainly was. I think the 1.1 has always been "safe" (non interference) and the 1.2 was until they put the vvt pulley on the Euro 5 69hp version in around 2011. I'm as sure as I can be that my 2010 1.2 Euro 4 60hp Dynamic Eco is safe. So if a "safe" engine breaks it's timing (cam) belt, in theory all that happens is it spins to a halt and the engine won't run. Fit a new belt with timing set correctly and you're up and running again. I say "in theory" though because there are a lot of incidental things which can go wrong, not least being in the fast lane on a dark and stormy night far from home! It could happen that the belt, when it breaks, could destroy the plastic covers and perhaps punch holes in the radiator. Also --- well, you think about it, broken fan belt whipping around etc. I'd rather just avoid all this and the cost and bother of a tow!

So, for me, its a cautious 48'000 miles (ok make it 50'000) or 4 years old (the belts degrade with age as well as mileage and wear more in city stop/go than when cruising on the motorway) Whichever comes first.

 

[Theleman]

So, for me, its a cautious 48'000 miles (ok make it 50'000) or 4 years old (the belts degrade with age as well as mileage and wear more in city stop/go than when cruising on the motorway) Whichever comes first.

Thank you for great post and clear explanation Jock.

So it depended on engine design too. I seem to understand about it a lot more after reading this thread.

Yes, I recall someone telling me that if belt snaps, then engine will be broken, and will need a new one or a new car ... blah blah. So I got the timing belt done with priority at the time, because if it snaps then I will have no car I feared.

And then I read here, even timing belt snaps, engine will just stop, but then get a new belt and fit it and on you go.

I thought so it must be some other belt which breaks engines when snaps. But it depends on the engine design.

Glad to know our Panda eco 1.1 is non affected design and reliable one.

I don;t know much about diesel engines either apart from they use fuel injection, and I heard that if something goes wrong with diesel engines, it is expensive to repair if not impossible.

Popular car Youtuber Scotty Kilmer says Fiat engines are most unreliable along with Hyundai in his videos, but I think he is wrong there. He seems be prejudiced to Toyota and Hondas, but thats all they get in that part of the world, and he seems think Fiat and Hyundai are rubbish cars.

Anyhow I am glad that my Panda's got new timing belt at 50k miles, and now it is done 62k. It has never broken down or failed to start in 10 years with us. It is a pretty reliable wee car in my book.

 

[pashtun]

Thanks all for the posts, I'm not sure if the 1.2 engine in the car I'll be getting on Thursday is the 'safe' variety, how can you tell for sure if it is or not I wonder?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks all for the posts, I'm not sure if the 1.2 engine in the car I'll be getting on Thursday is the 'safe' variety, how can you tell for sure if it is or not I wonder?

Open the bonnet and locate the oil filler cap. Is it a square rubber pull out thing? If so this is an older engine and, as far as I know, safe, - our old Panda Parade was like this. If you have a round "twist to remove" cap then look to the rear of the cam cover and just to it's right and if you see a small (maybe 2" long) cylindrical device with an electrical connection on it's rear end then this is the VVT camshaft sprocket actuating solenoid. This means it is an interference engine Euro 5 (introduced I believe around 2011 on the 1.2 - the 1.1, I believe, was always "safe). Our 2010 1.2 is Euro 4, has the round filler cap but just a blanking plug in the cam cover where the Euro 5 has it's solenoid and no VVT and is "safe" as far as I know. The "safe" 1.2 is 60hp and the one with the VVT sprocket (thus "unsafe"?) is rated at 69hp Your owner's manual - is it on the V5? - may quote which engine you have so it may help to know this.

 

[pashtun]

Thanks Jock,
In the manual it says in pen it's a model 169, but that's from a photo I took of the manual - can't look under the bonnet just yet but will do...hopefully as it's a March 2005 registered car it will be the 'safe' engine!

 

[sandeel999]

Well having bought 30 plus cars over the years, from main dealers down to small (less than 10 cars) dealers I've always had the cam belt done in the price unless they can show official paperwork that it's been done. I've never had a garage refuse yet to change it if necessary and I would be insisting it's done in the price, regardless of non interference or not.
I would look at what the trade in price for the car with that mileage and that will give you an indicator of the profit the dealer will be making. These things are usually factored in to the price as most would ask for it to be done if there's no evidence.
Personally I'd have said no belt no deal.

 

[rmjbn1]

From your original post, it sounds a little late in the day to try to strike a deal? Worth a try though

With a low milage car (skydome too! very envious), I'm not surprised the timing belt hasn't been changed, but yes, after 14 years it's overdue because of the rubber deteriorating with age. In your place, I'd be tempted to wait a couple of months to make sure there aren't any other major issues, then get it done by an independent garage (mine was £130 from our friendly local mechanic) once you're sure she's a keeper.

I did this with my '54 plate 1.2 when I got it last October on 92k miles. My other car (also a safe non-interference engine) had to wait till it was 26 years old on 120k miles, so they can last a long time, but I don't think it's worth the risk. You'd be unlucky to have any serious damage result, but it will need doing anyway and you'd be on borrowed time.

 

[varesecrazy]

Take 10 mins to remove the top belt cover.

Itll tell you 2 rhings.

If there is oil contamination..
If there is belt debris

If oily it needs addressing..


Also.. if you can read text on back of belt its relatively new.

The idler bearing tensioner..runs against the back of the belt.. and will make it look 'polished'

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks Jock,
In the manual it says in pen it's a model 169, but that's from a photo I took of the manual - can't look under the bonnet just yet but will do...hopefully as it's a March 2005 registered car it will be the 'safe' engine!

The 169 model was produced from 2003 to 2012. My 2010 1.2 Dynamic Eco was one of the last produced with the 60hp Euro 4 engine. In 2011 they put the 69hp Euro 5 engine in them which has the VVT cam and is interference - as far as I know? I think the model was called "Mylife" and there were complaints about the drivability. People reported serious problems with hesitation etc. There's a lot on the forum about this problem (I think the 500 thread has a "sticky" featuring the BBC Watchdog program which slated it.) I'm still not myself very sure if a proper "cure" was ever put in place for this problem? Anyone know anything about it?

So, I think, you will have a "safe" engine! (I say "think" because I'm always worried about advising wrongly - but I do feel pretty certain on this one)

 

[DaveMcT]

With the belt cover removed, any sign of cracking between the timing belt teeth means its overdue for replacement. They generally lose teeth before the belt itself gets shredded.

It's an easy job on the 1.2/60 so independent mechanic costs should not be high.

 

[Theleman]

With the belt cover removed, any sign of cracking between the timing belt teeth means its overdue for replacement. They generally lose teeth before the belt itself gets shredded.

It's an easy job on the 1.2/60 so independent mechanic costs should not be high.

Could it be done by home DIYer?

 

[varesecrazy]

Could it be done by home DIYer?

See the GUIDEs on here

My one shows the @6 basic hand tools

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-guides/437184-panda-8-valve-cambelt-change.html?p=4160027