Technical Intermittent rubbing sound from brakes

[Quantum Fireball]

I'm experiencing this issue with an intermittent rubbing noise that seems to correspond to wheel speed while driving at lower speeds. The noise goes away when the brakes are applied, so I assume it's the brakes. I can hear it's on the left side, but not sure if it's the front or rear.

I looked at the front brakes, didn't see anything obviously wrong but cleaned and lubricated the caliper slide pin in case (I had similar problems with other cars where this was the cause), and of course split one of the boots in the process! Will have to replace that now - it seems the boots aren't sold separately, but only with the slide pin?

I haven't looked at the rear brake yet. Are there any likely causes of this? I'm not very familiar with drum brakes, have only worked on discs in the past. I have the service manual, but it's not very useful regarding cleaning/lubricating.

2010 Panda 1.1 Active Eco, about 270k km

 

[koalar]

Fairly common fault, several causes

You already confirmed it brakes, which is good

Before taking wild guess we can try and narrow it down

When you use the foot brake all brakes are used

If you gently apply the handbrake, just the rears are used, if the noise goes away the problem is the rear, if it stays the same the problem the front

Does the noise change if you turn left or right,

 

[Quantum Fireball]

Yes, the noise goes away when the handbrake is applied while driving. It doesn't seem to change much with turning. It's easier to hear when driving on a straight road with a wall or something consistent along the left side.

 

[koalar]

Great you have confirmed the problem is with the rear brakes

Unfortunately you have no option except to remove the drum and do a visual inspection

At 270k km it possible it's still on its original shoes

There's nothing complicated with the rear brakes

I suspect it will have the less common for the panda Delphi brakes , one of the retaining clips for the shoes is prone to rusting away

 

[Quantum Fireball]

I found the problem - the adjuster seemed to be out of position and was rubbing against the hub. I tried loosening the adjuster and moving it up a bit, but then I couldn't tighten it afterwards. In hindsight I think I misunderstood the mechanism (the service manual was mostly useless regarding this), also I had not loosened the handbrake cable (I probably should have, right?), and probably wrecked the teeth on the adjuster trying to force it.

I tried putting it back together, and the noise was much worse and brake pedal travel is now awful.

Am I better off removing the wheel bearing to get better access to the adjuster? Lacking appropriate tools for that right now.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I havnt been in a Panda drum yet, but Ive never had to remove a hub to do a drum brake so I doubt this would be needed, and it might end in a world of pain. You clearly need new adjusters and maybe your best bet is a refurb of the back brakes. You might well be best getting a full kit and changing anything thats worn while you are there. Fix it once and for all. I would always do both sides. If you dont want to spend out, then get another adjuster from a breakers, clean and check it before fitting. Obviously check everything carefully for wear and damage.

 

[Quantum Fireball]

I havnt been in a Panda drum yet, but Ive never had to remove a hub to do a drum brake so I doubt this would be needed, and it might end in a world of pain. You clearly need new adjusters and maybe your best bet is a refurb of the back brakes. You might well be best getting a full kit and changing anything thats worn while you are there. Fix it once and for all. I would always do both sides. If you dont want to spend out, then get another adjuster from a breakers, clean and check it before fitting. Obviously check everything carefully for wear and damage.

Thanks for the info. The shoes looked fairly new and in good shape, along with the springs and other parts. I was considering getting adjusters from a breakers as the OEM prices look crazy.

 

[koalar]

If the rear are Lockheed

This is how I do them, there are other ways

Disconnect the brake cable, first

Photography the ones coming off for reference

Testing the bimetallic strip watch the left side, need to be viewed full screen

Testing the adjusters are adjusting

I have done them both ways but find it easier to remove the hub


The bimetallic strip can fall off
The lower retaining clip can rot off

 

[Quantum Fireball]

I think I have different brakes, though not too different. I didn't take pics, but ePER says the adjusters are 77362613 and going by pics online they appear to be Bosch (they look the same as what I have):

I'll see if I can find some tomorrow.

 

[koalar]

All the early cars all have Bosch, which are normally cheaper parts, the shoe linings do sometimes fall off (common) somewhere after 100K miles,

If they haven't already been changed I'd consider changing them at the same time, but it's up to you


My 2010 had Lockheed/Delphi

They are pretty much the same to work on except the Bosch have 3 springs and slightly different adjuster and retaining clips
.
A tee handle spring puller helps if you don't remove the hub, not essential but makes the job nicer


If you order the adjuster online, be careful, the pictures often don't match correctly, some eBay show two adjusters but the description says each

 

[rmjbn1]

I found this diagram helpful in understanding the adjusters.

A difficulty with setting them up is often trying to force the ratchet wheel (3) against the latch (9). It only likes being manually turned one way.

Agree with above, possible with hub left on, easier with the hub off but you need to undo and re-tighten a big old nut. 32mm socket and 600mm breaker bar works for me.

Also check if the drums have a rusty lip on the inside - I've had rust build-up catching the shoes and cause a rubbing noise with every revolution.

As Panda Nut says, adjusters can be expensive by themselves, often good deals available on complete brake assemblies.

 

[Quantum Fireball]

Yes, I found that diagram only after giving up yesterday - very useful. I only had the removal/assembly instructions from eLearn on me at the time, and they were not useful in helping me understand the mechanism!

Local Fiat dealer wanted €120 for adjusters! Motor factors couldn't get them. €29 on Mister Auto, hopefully they're the right type and not junk.

If there's a lip on the drums, should I try sanding it down or anything?

 

[rmjbn1]

If there's a lip on the drums, should I try sanding it down or anything?

I ground mine off with a wire brush on an angle grinder. Eye protection essential. You could chip the rust off with a hammer but I wouldn't want to hit the drum too hard.

 

[koalar]

Yes, I found that diagram only after giving up yesterday - very useful. I only had the removal/assembly instructions from eLearn on me at the time, and they were not useful in helping me understand the mechanism!

Local Fiat dealer wanted €120 for adjusters! Motor factors couldn't get them. €29 on Mister Auto, hopefully they're the right type and not junk.

Whole set is under £45 delivered here in the UK first I found was febi in photo, no idea if they are any good

I fitted Pagid without any problems, purely because at the time there was 50% off

If there's a lip on the drums, should I try sanding it down or anything?

Chip and wire brush

 

[Yolanda]

I've found that any work on the rear brakes apart from inspection, is a lot easier with the hub removed.

 

[Quantum Fireball]

I took another look today, and it seems the ratchet pawl (no. 9 in the diagram above) is missing. And one of the shoe retaining pins fell out on the way to the location where I was working on the car...

The wheel cylinder seems to be seeping a bit, so I might just throw in the towel on this one as I don't have the tools to work on hydraulics.

 

[koalar]

I took another look today, and it seems the ratchet pawl (no. 9 in the diagram above) is missing. And one of the shoe retaining pins fell out on the way to the location where I was working on the car...

The wheel cylinder seems to be seeping a bit, so I might just throw in the towel on this one as I don't have the tools to work on hydraulics.

Yep all pretty typical

If you pull back the rubber and it's damp inside, it's silly not to replace at the same time

Not that difficult or expensive to repair

£45 parts and it's as good as new

Even adding the cost of a socket, breakers bar, brake fluid and flare spanner

If your not comfortable, you can always ask for some quotes seeing as you know what the problem is

 

[Quantum Fireball]

OK, local garage is booked out for a month, so I guess I'm doing it myself.

So what I need is:

• 32mm socket for hub nut
• 10mm flare spanner
• Brake fluid - do I need a bleed kit?
• Replacement wheel cylinder
• Replacement adjuster (already ordered)
• Shoe fitting kit (to replace missing retaining pin)
• Probably lots of penetrating fluid

I have 3/4" and 1/2" socket sets (also with hex bits), 1/2" and 3/4" torque wrenches, 1/2" breaker bar and whatever else I've used to remove the drum and shoes so far.

I see in some videos they are removing the backing plate to get the cylinder off - is this recommended?

And should I be doing both cylinders at the same time? I haven't looked at the other rear brake yet, though it seems to work fine and isn't making any noise.

 

[koalar]

Right let's think

It been awhile

Let's start with the easy

If you have an assistant to pump the brake pedal, you just need a small amount of aquarium pipe

You don't need to undo the backing plate, but it's will need loosening

Don't skimp on the brake flare spanner, high quality ones are better sized, so less likely to round off

Don't undo the brake pipe, it's likely to twist off

Instead hold the nut still and twist the wheel cylinder off

You will need something to grip the wheel cylinder, you can pop the pistons out and use self locking grips if need be

 

[jrkitching]

32mm socket for hub nut

I still don't understand why you'd want to take the hub off; I've replaced the rear drum brakes on a 169 and never felt the slightest need to do this. Once the drums are off, you have access to everything you need. And you can easily get the drums off by screwing suitable bolts into the holes for the locating pins; they're threaded for this exact purpose.

Brake fluid - do I need a bleed kit?

It's not necessary; if you have a second person to pump the brake pedal, you can do it the old fashioned way.

But it does make the job easier, and means you don't have to find an assistant for a few minutes.

My preference is to use a vacuum bleeder, as it minimises the risk of accidents and keeps the mess to a minimum. You can also use a pressure bleeder, but if you are not careful, this can result in brake fluid spraying into all sorts of unwanted places.