Technical Immobiliser problem on Ducato motorhome

[bugsymike]

This may be irrelevant but I had a similar issue with ex Highways 2001 Iveco Daily pickup some years ago. I drove it home no problem and as it was filthy I steam cleaned inside the cab and everywhere, afterwards it wouldn't start, long story short their drivers were always snapping the expensive chipped keys so the common practice was to tape the chip to the key antenae and jam it behind the speaker cover. My steam cleaning had blown the chip away with the rest of the dirt. Dealers wanted a £1000 if I towed it to them, in the end I posted the Bosch ECU to a guy in Bradford (no longer there) he disabled the immobiliser and told me before reconnecting the battery to remove the plugs to the antenae ring and the immobilser ECU which talks to the main ECU, I did all this and it was fine, total cost including return postage £130.

 

[Communicator]

Is it the diesel pump that I have cooled with water? Checked some pumps on the internet and am starting to have doubts. But in any case, it is this unit that is possibly the cause of my starting problem when the engine is warm. Because as soon as it was cooled down, the engine started even though it was very hot in the engine compartment.

I am not familiar with the 1.9TD engine, so I have been looking at your photos and others. Here is a link to a supplier/repairer of injection pumps. If you can recognise the pump fitted to your engine and then click on the image, it takes you to an interactive parts diagram. Interesting? Also this link will take you to a picture of a 1.9TD engine. The engine is as you would see it when looking from the front of the vehicle. The injection pump is near the bottom left hand corner of the photo.

Also perhaps not the same injection pump as on your vehicle, but could be, as it was used on the Fiat 2.8idTD, I am attaching a separate picture of a Bosch VE injection pump.

 

[Communicator]

This may be irrelevant but I had a similar issue with ex Highways 2001 Iveco Daily pickup some years ago. I drove it home no problem and as it was filthy I steam cleaned inside the cab and everywhere, afterwards it wouldn't start, long story short their drivers were always snapping the expensive chipped keys so the common practice was to tape the chip to the key antenae and jam it behind the speaker cover. My steam cleaning had blown the chip away with the rest of the dirt. Dealers wanted a £1000 if I towed it to them, in the end I posted the Bosch ECU to a guy in Bradford (no longer there) he disabled the immobiliser and told me before reconnecting the battery to remove the plugs to the antenae ring and the immobilser ECU which talks to the main ECU, I did all this and it was fine, total cost including return postage £130.

As you say it may be irrelevant in the current thread, but never the less, an interesting story. Also I think that it could be very relevant on another recent thread. Please see here. I think that it would be very useful, if you were to copy you post (experience) on to that thread.

 

[ThorRoger]

I have started to collect all the good advice in a book. So this winter this Norwegian has something to do. Must translate the workshop manual into Norwegian. All the tips from the forum must go into the book. Think, reason about the problem. Take trips to workshops where I see them working on the Fiat Ducato, talk to mechanics to learn as much as possible. But the fact that I should start the car with cold water is the last thing I would have thought would help. In Norwegian it vil bee "Tusen takk Communcator for at du tålmodig har lest mine innelegg, sett på mine bilder og gitt meg mange fine råd. Når du kom med råde om kjølespray så tenkte jeg at dette var et bra forslag. Det fordi problemet er at bilen ikke starter når den er varm. Jeg brukt kaldt vann og kjølte ned dieselpumpa eller en enhet som er koblet til pumpa. Da startet bilen med en gang. Jeg passet på at resten av motorommet var varmt.
In English ""Thank you very much, Communicator, for patiently reading my posts, looking at my pictures and giving me lots of good advice. When you gave me advice about cooling spray, I thought this was a good suggestion. That's because the problem is that the car doesn't start when it is hot.I used cold water and cooled down the diesel pump or a device connected to the pump.Then the car started right up.I made sure the rest of the engine compartment was warm."
Thank you
From
Thor Roger Johnsrud
Norge.

 

[ThorRoger]

This may be irrelevant but I had a similar issue with ex Highways 2001 Iveco Daily pickup some years ago. I drove it home no problem and as it was filthy I steam cleaned inside the cab and everywhere, afterwards it wouldn't start, long story short their drivers were always snapping the expensive chipped keys so the common practice was to tape the chip to the key antenae and jam it behind the speaker cover. My steam cleaning had blown the chip away with the rest of the dirt. Dealers wanted a £1000 if I towed it to them, in the end I posted the Bosch ECU to a guy in Bradford (no longer there) he disabled the immobiliser and told me before reconnecting the battery to remove the plugs to the antenae ring and the immobilser ECU which talks to the main ECU, I did all this and it was fine, total cost including return po

As you say it may be irrelevant in the current thread, but never the less, an interesting story. Also I think that it could be very relevant on another recent thread. Please see here. I think that it would be very useful, if you were to copy you post (experience) on to that thread.

Probably another problem with my car. Have tried removing the unit from the key and attaching it directly to the ECU without success.

 

[bugsymike]

Probably another problem with my car. Have tried removing the unit from the key and attaching it directly to the ECU without success.

To work I think the chip from the key has to be placed close to the centre of the antenae ring that is normally around the ignition barrel when fitted to the vehicle and all the wiring plugs as originally fitted.

 

[Ednic]

To work I think the chip from the key has to be placed close to the centre of the antenae ring that is normally around the ignition barrel when fitted to the vehicle and all the wiring plugs as originally fitted.

On a Berlingo I glued the chip inside the steering column shroud. It worked for the few years I had it.

 

[ThorRoger]

On a Berlingo I glued the chip inside the steering column shroud. It worked for the few years I had it.

I have tried the solution of attaching the chip directly to the antenna ring without it helping. There is probably overheating on a unit in the engine compartment. As I write in my post, the car started after I had taken cold water over a unit in the engine compartment. I have tried a large number of advice that I have found on the internet. After I have had contact back and forth with the Communicator and made several attempts, we came to the conclusion that overheating is the cause. Now the job is to exactly find which unit is failing. I have now parked the motorhome for the winter and must continue until the spring. Now I have the possibility that I can pour cold water on the unit and the motorhome starts even if the engine is otherwise warm. Will probably cause a stir when others see it. We have many motorhome spaces in Norway and there are from 10 - 50 cars in one place. I was going to try to check the engine this summer when we were on a trip, but when I opened the hood several "experts" immediately arrived with both good advice and a screwdriver and another tool in hand. Thanks for the good advice. Even if it doesn't help me, there are many others who are also looking for help and good advice that has worked for others

 

[Benscott]

Have done a lot of early 2.8s. If your system is the same, it can be bypassed, but requires some mechanical ability and dexterity. The Keycode Unit by the steering column talks to the fuel solenoid on the injection pump. This solenoid sticks out of the pump towards to starter motor, ie mounted horizontal, east/west. Remove any pipes, hosing, etc. in the way, eg intercooler hoses. Remove the 3 pin plug, the solenoid is secured with 2 tamper proof torx or hex screws (sorry been a few years since I did one). Once these are removed the electronic section of the solenoid can be removed, leaving a standard fuel solenoid. The 3 pin loom plug has wires from ignition, earth and KCU. Located the ign wire (live with key on), connect this to the fuel solenoid. The KCU box under the dash can be disconnected. Note: vehicle security has now been compromised, the van can now be started without a coded key.

Will this work with the 2.8jtd as my code is playing up

 

[Communicator]

In a word NO.

 

[bugsymike]

As Communicator says no.
I believe it was possible on older vehicles where it was a simple shut off solenoid on the injector pump, but as even with a security shroud over it, it didn't provide the anti theft requirements needed.
I recall on an old Peugeot 305 a customer had, that failed to start due to a duff solenoid, I simply removed the needle valve inside so he could carry on using it until a new part arrived, it did mean stalling it to stop which I wasn't happy about, but he just wanted to use it.

 

[ThorRoger]

Now I have read and looked at pictures of where the solenoid sits on my Fiat motorhome. If I change the solenoid, does it have to be from the same model as my car and engine? Is there any configuration required for the system to recognize the device? I have read that a part in the solenoid can be removed also will the motor work? I don't quite understand that part of the explanation. Will the engine stop when I switch off the ignition or must I, as we say in Norwegian, choke the engine by having the car in gear, holding the throttle in and releasing the clutch. Then the engine will stop, but that is very unhealthy for both me and the engine. I have a picture here and is this where the solenoid sits?

 

[bugsymike]

Now I have read and looked at pictures of where the solenoid sits on my Fiat motorhome. If I change the solenoid, does it have to be from the same model as my car and engine? Is there any configuration required for the system to recognize the device? I have read that a part in the solenoid can be removed also will the motor work? I don't quite understand that part of the explanation. Will the engine stop when I switch off the ignition or must I, as we say in Norwegian, choke the engine by having the car in gear, holding the throttle in and releasing the clutch. Then the engine will stop, but that is very unhealthy for both me and the engine. I have a picture here and is this where the solenoid sits?

If I am seeing it right yours is a Bosch (pre common rail) injector pump with the four pipes going to the injectors, if your solenoid is covered with an anti tamper cover with security bolts, in some cases it is possible to remove that anti tamper cover and expose the older style single contact on/off solenoid that opens or closes the fuel at the pump. If that solenoid is removed, inside it is a needle with a spring that is pushed out and blocks the fuel stopping the engine and when powered by turning on ignition the elctro magnet pulls the needle back allowing fuel to run the engine.
It may be possible to fit a basic older style on/off solenoid if yours has multiple wires to it, but I don't know how this will affect any ECU operation your vehicle has.
Regarding the "stalling to stop" the engine scenario many years ago I had a customer whose Peugeot 305 diesel wouldn't start and as I couldn't hear the solenoid clicking I removed the needle so he could use the car until the correct solenoid arrived, not ideal, but he could drive the car which he was happy about.
It should be possible to get the correct solenoid from a Bosch diesel agent to suit that model of injector pump.
If not available where you are, you could fit an inline solenoid valve in the fuel pipe to the injector pump such as the use for safety on boats etc. that is open when powered by 12 volts and shuts when no volts after you had caused the original valve to stay permanently open.
The only disadvantage of that is it will take longer for the engine to stop while it uses up the fuel in the line to the pump.
This is one type for Bosch pumps on eBay, but I don't know if correct for your actual pump, if you get the anti tamper cover off you may be able to do as has been suggested and simple remove the multiple wires at the cover and just wire a feed via a switch to the existing solenoid if there is nothing wrong with it direct.

 

[Communicator]

Now I have read and looked at pictures of where the solenoid sits on my Fiat motorhome. If I change the solenoid, does it have to be from the same model as my car and engine? Is there any configuration required for the system to recognize the device? I have read that a part in the solenoid can be removed also will the motor work? I don't quite understand that part of the explanation. Will the engine stop when I switch off the ignition or must I, as we say in Norwegian, choke the engine by having the car in gear, holding the throttle in and releasing the clutch. Then the engine will stop, but that is very unhealthy for both me and the engine. I have a picture here and is this where the solenoid sits?

Hi,
You should not have to remove the solenoid from your injection pump. I think that there is some confusion here. What is failing is the electronic immobiliser board, that is under the strong metal cover in your photo. This is where you were pouring water?

You will need to remove the cover that has the 3 wires going into it, which hard to do. See previous posts, particularly #26 & #29.

The following operations will disable the immobiliser, and security will be reduced.

Locate the wire from the ignition switch and that leading to the solenoid. This wire will be totally under the cover. Disconnect these wires from the electronic board, and join them together. The other two wires from chassis and the key code unit may also be disconnected.

You engine should now stop and start without problem.

 

[ThorRoger]

Hi,
You should not have to remove the solenoid from your injection pump. I think that there is some confusion here. What is failing is the electronic immobiliser board, that is under the strong metal cover in your photo. This is where you were pouring water?

You will need to remove the cover that has the 3 wires going into it, which hard to do. See previous posts, particularly #26 & #29.

The following operations will disable the immobiliser, and security will be reduced.

Locate the wire from the ignition switch and that leading to the solenoid. This wire will be totally under the cover. Disconnect these wires from the electronic board, and join them together. The other two wires from chassis and the key code unit may also be disconnected.

You engine should now stop and start without problem.

That's where I poured water. Seemed like the cool down allowed me to restart the engine. If I just wait, it takes over an hour before the engine will start.

 

[Communicator]

@ThorRoger have you been able to make any further progress. with your problem?

 

[ThorRoger]

@ThorRoger have you been able to make any further progress. with your problem?

Hello. I haven't been able to do anything more with the camper. It is parked at a mobile home hotel in Tønsberg. It is about 1 ½ hours to drive from where I live. The motorhome only has summer tires and cannot therefore be driven on Norwegian roads due to snow and ice. If I want to do that, I have to invest in winter tires for about 1,000 euros. I can't do that until I know if the motorhome works 100%. I take note of all the advice that comes here on the forum and would like to start testing it out. But when it's freezing and I have to stand outside, this becomes difficult to do.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for the reply. I now realise that you are still in hibernation mode!

 

[Gary Strange]

Hi,
I have a 1999 Hymer motorhome based on the 2.8 TD Fiat Ducato.
The immobiliser has decided not to recognise the ignition key and at the moment it's stuck on my driveway.I've tried the both the slave and master keys and the engine cranks but won't fire and the CODE warning light on the dashboard stays on.
I've had a word with my mechanic and he's asked if anyone knows if there's a diagnostic socket on this engine. I've contacted a couple of Fiat main dealers and one said the socket is by the ECU and another said getting plugged up to the socket won't help. They went on to say I need to force the memory through so I can get the vehicle started and then drive to the nearest Fiat garage, which is about 50 miles away. They can then apply to Fiat UK for the original code (it can't be got from anywhere else!) and re-programme the system.
Can anyone out there confirm this is the only way, or is there an alternative?
Thanks,
Peter

Peter.
You can get the 5 digit code from your chassis number l got mine from Lipscombe in Canterbury, the manual tells you how to start using the accelerator pedal. I had the same problem and mine was fixed but RMS Diagnostics in Sandwich Kent. Tow ecu's were repaired and recoded and the keys were recoded. All good.
Gary

 

[Communicator]

Peter.
You can get the 5 digit code from your chassis number l got mine from Lipscombe in Canterbury, the manual tells you how to start using the accelerator pedal. I had the same problem and mine was fixed but RMS Diagnostics in Sandwich Kent. Tow ecu's were repaired and recoded and the keys were recoded. All good.
Gary

Gary,
The post that you are replying to is over eleven years old.