Technical idle speed high

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Technical idle speed high

gordinir8

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I have noticed that after i start the engine and some minutes of operation, idle speed is high, not very high but it is. I have check easy things first like butterfly and choke position and it doesn't come from this, everything is neutral. Any ideas about how to proceed.:confused:
Also for what is worth this engine smells really bad, lot of gas fumes although no smoke from the exhaust. Also cabin smells terribly with gas through the heater and No 1 cylinder is a bit oily but i think this is another issue, i will go now to perform a carbon monoxide check at my local garage and i will report further on this.
 
My hand throttle is in the bin....
Check that the throttle cable is not sticking - see if when you check the carb that it returns to the stop.
They are known to stick in the steel tube that exits the tunnel to engine bay and then it would obviously rev higher...
 
I don't have hand throttle and as i said i have checked that there is no mechanical issue. At the shop today guy told me when he put it on the carbon monoxide tester that when at idle numbers are normal but when i put throttle on tester goes crazy and that he is detecting high hydrocarbon and that it doesn't burn oil He told me that might be carburetor. I will first check timing that might be a reason of wrong timing and i will let you know. Any other ideas are welcome.
 
As I said the problem has nothing to do with cables or levers or petal etc, have in mind that has extremely high hydrocarbon so there is something with the carburator itself. Air cleaner is ok. I haven't adjust any screws so far. Before I spend 80 euros for a brand new carburator I will remove It, clean it and check timing.
 
When you check the carburettor, take the float out and give it a light shake. There is a slight chance that the float has some petrol in it due to a (even slight) crack in it. If all is well with the float, check that the needle-valve is actually shutting off the fuel (are you using the standard, mechanical fuel pump) and also check the float level is correct. Also check that there is a small (aluminium) washer under the needle-valve.
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Ok I will do all those checks, thank you. Timing was way out, I made a quick adjustment but it needs also to check the contacts. Smell still here.
 
I have some progress, i marked my pulley at 25mm, that is 18 before TDC and set it there. I have also adjust the contact gap to 05mm (it was about 04). Drives ok but now it backfires when i loose the throttle and i am not sure if this is because the contacts adjustment or advance.
Before my adjustments timing was set way out maybe more than 30 degrees!!
Unfortunately my light gun broke up so i adjust it again just by hand somewhere close to 18 degrees.
Do you recommend one of those Powerspark contactless ignition kits?
 
static timing for both the 500 and the 126 engines with 'points' ignition is 10 degrees BTDC (which equates to 14mm). The 'hall effect' simple electronic ignition systems are worth fitting, but you MUST use a timing-light to set them, you cannot set them 'statically'. Idle timing is still 10 degrees BTDC
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Yes i know that it req. a timing light and i will go buy a new one, i think i will also buy one of those timing sets, they are cheap and saves you from trouble.
Although all those different settings smell is still there so after i done with ignition adjustments i will go for the carb to see what is inside.
 
If you can get a timing light, you can set the dynamic (engine running) timing, which is much more accurate than static timing.

As Tom noted, the static timing is 10 degrees before top dead center (BTDC).
The dynamic timing is 18 degrees BTDC at 3000 rpm.

You need to have the dwell (point gap) set correctly. If you have an electronic ignition then you can bypass this. If not, I highly recommend that you install one. I used the Pertronix system which works great. Points removal should be the first modification anyone does to a 500. Dwell affects timing.

Static advance (10 degrees) is good for getting the timing close enough so the engine will start and run reasonably well. You really need to set the engine up for maximum dynamic advance. This is 18 degrees at 3000 rpm. If you set timing at 18 degrees static advance then you have over advanced the timing and that may be causing the backfiring.

On the pulley locate the TDC mark. Now make another mark 25mm clockwise from that mark. This is 18 degrees BTDC. Loosen the distributor so it can be turned (but not too loose). Install your timing light. Start the engine and rev the engine to at least 3000 rpm. Aim the timing light at the mark on the timing case and turn the distributor until the 18 degree mark you made lines up with the mark on the timing case. Tighten the distributor down and recheck the timing.
I would also check if using a Weber IMB carburetor to make sure the fuel enrichment piston "choke" is returning all the way back when choke lever is returned to off position. Cable may need to be adjusted or valve cleaned.
John
 
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John thank you for your instructions. Got my timing light working today (miracle perhaps) and adjust it to 18 degrees, 25mm from TDC pulley mark.
I have to say here that my pulley has no marks engraved on the side but just the big mark on the pulley face which i confirm that when is aligned with the arrow of the engine block it is true TDC so i am sure about my marks.
I am not happy with the running of the engine and i have some backfiring but a Powerspark kit is on its way so i will try and readjust it when ignition kit is installed. Then i will remove and clean/inspect my carb to see whats inside. If i found it worn i will buy a new one since i can find it locally for a good price, but that is plan C.
Also as i mention before lot of fumes when the engine is working and as my local shop measure comes from fuel and not from oil and this is my biggest problem. I will take it step by step and try to isolate problems, one at a time.
For now i just removed the heater hose from the cabin and block the duct with speed tape. Someone may die while driving in there.
 
Are you sure the problem with the gas fumes is not from the gas tank or gas lines? Your tank may have some rusty spots where gasoline is weeping through (like on the bottom where you can't see it), and the same goes for steel and rubber gas lines both in the front boot and where they pass through the passenger cabin. It takes very little gas to make a very big smell.
John
 
Yes i am sure it is not a leak. Smell is not liquid fuel but exhaust fumes that the analyser show it has high hydrocarbons that means it comes from fuel as they told me at the local shop. Besides fuel line incl. the cooper one from tank to engine bay is new. Also there is no visible smoke out of the exhaust pipe.
 
It is worth considering that the head gasket has failed and fumes are being released through the hollow bolts in the head
 
I will take a look but i don't think it is from the head since we are talking for a lot of smell coming out the ,but since you mention it i will take a look to isolate that factor too.(y)
 
Done some more adjustments today.
1. I removed distributor and while in hand set the points to 05mm
2. Set idle advance at 10 degrees and max at 18 degrees and road test it (didn't like it)
3. Set max advance at 10 degrees and test is (didn't like it)
4. Set idle advance at 18!! degrees and road test it (much better)
5. Set advance even more to about 22-25 degrees and road test it (i think even better):eek:
In conclusion it runs better at high advance and remember that this was the settings i found on the car before i mess with timing. it just dont like original settings:confused:
Also when i release the throttle with gear in i have some backfiring and i think that it is because of the points gap. It was about 03mm before i set it as per manual.
I am not going to do anything more until i put the electronic ignition module.
 
Did the garage do a compression test?

As Andrew Harvey says it's possible the head gasket is failing.
You could maybe ask the garage to do a 'sniff test' with their CO probe at the hollow bolts in the cylinder head?

Any time I encounter an engine that doesn't run well with the ignition timing set correctly according to the marks, I check if the marks are actually correct. A screwdriver or similar inserted carefully down a plug hole and the engine turned by hand to bring the piston up to TDC should show the TDC marks aligned.

In the past, some Mechanics adjusted the engine timing and carb idle mixture 'by ear', especially if the car didn't seem to run well with 'standard settings. This isn't to be recommended but here's one way of doing it if you want to try it, at your own risk!

Seting Ign. timing :- With the engine warmed up, loosen the distributor clamp and slowly turn it to advance the ignition timing until the idle speed is highest, then slightly retard the timing and tighten the distributor clamp.

Setting idle mixture and speed :- With engine warmed up and ign. timing set as above, there are different techniques.

Sometimes a setting is given for the number of turns out of the idle mixture screw from a gently seated position e.g. 1 1/4 turns out, or a range of adjustment e.g. 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 turns out.

It's a good idea to remove and check this idle mixture screw carefully before adjusting it. Some Weber carbs use screws that have a very fine tip (almost like a needle, might not apply to 500 carbs) at it's end, not just a taper. Sometimes this tip get broken-off in the orifice (that's a hole to you and me, in carb. talk there's no holes only orifices!). Some of these screws use an 'o' ring to seal it, check it's present and intact.

Having set this mixture screw as per the recommended setting, I then continue backing the screw out to get the highest idle speed. Usually the engine will start to sound splashy or slightly missy. Then turn the screw back in until the engine runs smoothly.

Another way on Fiat engines is to screw the idle mixture screw in slowly until the engine starts to 'hunt' (lumpy running, rhythmical sound due to excessively 'rich' mixture) then back out the screw about 1/2 - 3/4 turn from this point.

Then adjust the idle speed screw ( this bears on the throttle linkage, so acts as stop) to give the correct idle speed. It might be necessary to do both adjustments again.

The car then needs to be road-tested. Check for engine 'pinking' on acceleration, particularly accelerating from low speed in a higher gear or climbing hills. This is a sort of tinkling sound and indicates that the ignition timing is too far advanced. (can also be caused by lots of other factors incl fuel knock-resistance). If present, retard ign. timing slightly and road test. I used to carry a spanner and screwdriver with me on road-test so that I could make a number of slight adjustments while on road-test.

Another thing- If the car seems to surge when cruising on a light throttle opening, the ignition timing is probably slightly too far advanced. YMMV.

OP - have you tried backing off the idle speed screw to lower idle speed. It should be possible to do so enough to cause the engine to stall.

OP - please bear in mind that an electronic ignition system won't cure a carb/fuel problem.
Imho, there's nothing wrong with a points type ign. system providing it correctly maintained. I always set the c/b points to no more than 0,4mm.
Iirc the official setting was 0.3 - 0.4mm?. Too large a points gap reduces the amount of time for coil saturation and can cause a weak spark at high rpm.

My suspicion?

It's a carb/fuel problem. Others have suggested various things to check.

The approach I'd take is :-

Check valve clearances, do a compression test (wet and dry), Rule out head gasket failing/failure. Check spark plugs while they're out, condition/colour. Set gaps to 25 thou. (0.6 - 0.7mm? iirc).

Check for an AIR LEAK!! especially around base of carb to manifold/head.

If on the other hand, plugs look sooty/wet etc, assuming car has been driven on the road not left idling on choke, I'd suspect possible carb. flooding. If there are signs of fuel having been leaking down the carb body = brownish stains), I'd suspect flooding. As 'the hobbler' says above, check float and check float valve needle and seat. It used to be common practice to replace these (they're a matched pair) if in doubt.Check float level.

Try the car. If no improvement, strip and clean carb.
If you remove the carb form the engine you can check the condition of any gaskets. As well as removing and cleaning all the jets and orifices (reminder, that's holes to you and me!), you need to ensure all passageways and drillings are clear.

If you were to read the official Weber carb manual or the individual carb type leaflets,you would see just how much work is required to properly clean and overhaul a carb.
There are e.g. air compensator drillings in the upper part of the carb that many people overlook. If you haven't got a compressed air supply, you can spray something like WD40 in each passageway/drilling and see where it comes out. Old mechanics, who smoked, would blow smoke into each drilling to check it was clear. But I'm rambling now, old people tend to do that!

The easiest way to check out this problem is probably substitution. Fit a known good carb. = problem solved, then it was the old carb at fault, if no change then problem is elsewhere.
However most of us don't have this luxury so have to work with what we have in front of us.

I, for one, wouldn't buy a new carb or convert to electronic ignition until I had pin-pointed the actual problem and tried to fix it.

Let us know how you get on,

Al.
 
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