General Ice and Panda's dont mix.

[RobW]

But the fun of driving on track in the wet is that you can get the car to move around and play with it. I had an absolute ball a couple of weeks ago in the wet at Anglesey in a supercharged mk1 mr2 with LSD, also had some fun with a 400bhp+ mk2 mr2.

yep I agree, on a track car...
I also have a Cinq Sporting track car which i love, it doesn't even has PAS so you are totally connected to the car

with a road car ESP, ABS, ASR, PAS are all fantastic active safety devices

and that is what this thread is all about - safety on the road

 

[BenP]

Well that just proves they have no car control, nothing more nothing less.

http://bookatrack.com/-PFadam20xe299424781?adam20xe&2994&24781&video/x-ms-wmv

Agreed. In my opinion, having owned two E46 M3s and an E46 M3 CSL, they are one of the most controllable cars I've ever driven. RWD scares a lot of people but it's actually a much better set up IMO. Rear wheels drive, front wheels steer. Nothing more, nothing less - and if you do get into a spot of bother, the throttle can become you best friend.

However, RWD doesn't suffer fools, and will punish much quicker than a FWD car.

 

[Hellcat]

We're not talking about on a track. We're talking about road cars, for use by normal people, driving safely.

I very much doubt that lift-off oversteering is such a safe thing that you'd hapily do it while driving infront of a police patrol car.

You seem to be suffering from confusion between race tracks and roads.

 

[dave]

for use by normal people,

*cough* we are in new panda section*cough*

 

[BenP]

You seem to be suffering from confusion between race tracks and roads.

Not at all - I just get fed up when people blame cars for being rubbish in bad weather conditions when it's purely down to the driver's inability or their failure to equip it correctly for the conditions at hand.

A manufacturer doesn't spend millions developing cars so joe public can't drive them safely.

Oh, and that photo's power over steer, not lift off

Ben

 

[DavePanda100]

Not at all - I just get fed up when people blame cars for being rubbish in bad weather conditions when it's purely down to the driver's inability or their failure to equip it correctly for the conditions at hand.

Ben

So when your out walking and slip on ice that's down to your inability to walk?

But that's beside the point...

The ice I slid on was unseen (black ice) and the distance from the kerb to the spot the car started sliding was a couple of feet, if that (the photo's show that).

No driver would have corrected the car away from it, no matter their ability at driving, the car was hitting the kurb no matter what.

No matter what people are saying, no ESP, winter tyres or any other gizmo would have stopped it, it's a accident, pure and simple it was happening, nothing was stopping it.

Can't believe this as turned into 4 pages of bickering over ESP, bad driving, not being able to drive, winter tyres etc.


End of the day, the car is being fixed and will be back Monday or Tuesday depending on parts availability, nobody was hurt and everything will be fine.

 

[RobW]

So when your out walking and slip on ice that's down to your inability to walk?

But that's beside the point...

The ice I slid on was unseen (black ice) and the distance from the kerb to the spot the car started sliding was a couple of feet, if that (the photo's show that).

No driver would have corrected the car away from it, no matter their ability at driving, the car was hitting the kurb no matter what.

No matter what people are saying, no ESP, winter tyres or any other gizmo would have stopped it, it's a accident, pure and simple it was happening, nothing was stopping it.

Can't believe this as turned into 4 pages of bickering over ESP, bad driving, not being able to drive, winter tyres etc.


End of the day, the car is being fixed and will be back Monday or Tuesday depending on parts availability, nobody was hurt and everything will be fine.

i had a similar shunt in my Cinq Sporting mate, came over a crest and tried to slow down for a roundabout but locked up and slid into the kerb

accidents happen don't beat yourself up about it and don't take the discussion in this thread personally - people have taken time to share their opinions whether you agree with them or not

winter tyres would have helped though as normal tyres simply do not grip below 7 degress, at all on ice or tarmac and i will keep on banging the drum about them whenever i can

the difference is quite remarkable

 

[BenP]

So when your out walking and slip on ice that's down to your inability to walk?

If you were wearing flip-flops, it wouldn't be down to your inability to walk, it would be down to your inappropriate choice of footwear! You would have known it was cold, you would have known there was a chance of ice, so you wouldn't have worn the flip-flops in the first place!

Let me clear one thing up right now:

In any of my posts in this thread I'm not pointing the finger at anyone. Ultimately whether other people can drive or not, choose to fit winter tyres or not or prefer tea to coffee - that's their call. All I'm doing is offering my opinion. Sometimes I get heated, agitated or downright furious, but at the end of the day I'm just offering my opinion.

Everyone is different and has, and is also entitled to, their opinion - so let's try and keep it that way, as its the difference of opinion that makes conversations and therefore threads, interesting.

All I ask is that people don't state their opinion as fact - as that's when it starts getting heated!

In your situation Dave I don't think anything would have helped, even winter tyres can't help that much in a sudden change of surface conditions. You may as well have got out and watched from the pavement. The car was damaged, the car can be repaired. Simple as that! In s

So anyway, lets all kiss and make up and continue having interesting discussions, or I'm going to tell.

eace:

 

[Andy Monty]

If you were wearing flip-flops, it wouldn't be down to your inability to walk, it would be down to your inappropriate choice of footwear!

:devil:


Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction Dave and it doesn't take too long till you get your car back Wonder if the bump and associated work will stop the 100hp's lust for scrubbing the inside edge of the tires

 

[Hellcat]

Nobody is pointing a finger at you. We're sad for you for what's happened as nobody likes to see someone else's pride and joy damaged.

But it did spark a good debate about ESP, ABS and winter tyres, and what's a forum without debate? Would ESP + winter tyres have stopped you hitting the kerb on that day in them conditions - nobody here knows. All I know is that as a safety device for when things go wrong it's excellent, and might have helped - would it have been enough? Who knows?

As for the black ice... I treat the dinners at Pizza Express with a display of balance and skill (or was it luck) as I stepped onto black ice and did an amusing 'dance' for a good 10 seconds. Felt a right wally when I finally made it to the grippier snow and slush.

 

[Fluoxetine]

Sorry to hear of your accident, but glad to hear the car's on the mend!

I had wondered just how good the Eagle F1's would be in the winter...Not very would seem to be the answer!

Lots of chat about fitting winter tyres - I believe Toyo Snow Proxes are very good...Would need another set of wheels, as can't be bother faffing around changing tyres...

But...With the 100HP having bigger brakes (from the GP) than any other Panda, has anyone found a source of steel wheels in the correct offset, that will clear the calipers??

 

[Hellcat]

Sorry to hear of your accident, but glad to hear the car's on the mend!

I had wondered just how good the Eagle F1's would be in the winter...Not very would seem to be the answer!

Lots of chat about fitting winter tyres - I believe Toyo Snow Proxes are very good...Would need another set of wheels, as can't be bother faffing around changing tyres...

But...With the 100HP having bigger brakes (from the GP) than any other Panda, has anyone found a source of steel wheels in the correct offset, that will clear the calipers??

Eagle F1s? They're awful in the winter. Truly awful.

Bloody brilliant in wet and dry though.

 

[BenP]

Eagle F1s? They're awful in the winter. Truly awful.

Agreed, although the Ultra Grip 3 bears some resemblance:

 

[Hellcat]

Agreed, although the Ultra Grip 3 bears some resemblance:

Ooooh look at all them radial lines :yum: Just perfect for moving about and gripping in the cold..


Now this.... what grip?

 

[trackdayqueen]

We're not talking about on a track. We're talking about road cars, for use by normal people, driving safely.

I very much doubt that lift-off oversteering is such a safe thing that you'd hapily do it while driving infront of a police patrol car.

You seem to be suffering from confusion between race tracks and roads.

I know what we are talking about honey.

I'm most definately not normal though, who'd ever want to be normal?

I've done lots of naughty things in front of police cars and yes I would use lift-off oversteer in front of one given half a chance. I would enjoy the ensuing debate about being in control of the car etc.

I am not suffering from any confusion, i'm merely pointing out that not all of us are happy having our driving skills reduced to the lowest demoninator. I've spent years (20 years on the road nearly half of that on track) honing my skills, why would I want them dumbed down by frankly annoying driver 'aids' that prevent me from controlling the car in the way in which I want to?

 

[Hellcat]

I've done lots of naughty things in front of police cars

Sound like a very curteous and safe driver. Glad you're not on the roads around me.


99.9% of the drivers on the road won't be pushing the car to the limit. They'll be driving mostly safely and if there's a system that means that even the most nervous driver can get their car out of trouble without having to go to rally school then whats wrong with that?

 

[BenP]

But...With the 100HP having bigger brakes (from the GP) than any other Panda, has anyone found a source of steel wheels in the correct offset, that will clear the calipers??

I rang my local dealer today who had no idea whether the 14" Panda steels would fit a 100HP, nor indeed whether the 15" steels from a GP would.

Luckily about an hour later a wrecked GP was unloaded from a recovery truck at my body shop and it's a definite write off, so this weekend I'll be seeing whether the 15" steels do in fact fit.

If they do, the tyre size will need to be changed from 165/65 to 175/50 to retain the same rolling radius as the 100HPs 195/45s, but winter tyres are available in that size anyway so it's no problem.

Will report back when I'm done!

 

[trackdayqueen]

Sound like a very curteous and safe driver. Glad you're not on the roads around me.

99.9% of the drivers on the road won't be pushing the car to the limit. They'll be driving mostly safely and if there's a system that means that even the most nervous driver can get their car out of trouble without having to go to rally school then whats wrong with that?

I've never been overly courteous tbh. I loathe the poor standards of driving that I encounter on a daily basis and have no patience for it.

Well if you can't drive I guess it's important to have that kind of safety net. However I think it is downright foolish to rely on ESP etc to sort out things for you. Sure there is nothing wrong with having aids to help poor drivers, have no problem at all with that. Not my cup of tea though.

 

[DavePanda100]

Update:

All parts except the drive shaft are in, so the mechanic can get on with the work, back early next week and booked in for a service too.

Got a courtesy car too, a Grand Punto 1.2 Active, how big are the side mirrors!

 

[Hellcat]

Update:

All parts except the drive shaft are in, so the mechanic can get on with the work, back early next week and booked in for a service too.

Got a courtesy car too, a Grand Punto 1.2 Active, how big are the side mirrors!

Tiny! How long does it take to get it to 60?