Technical How to remove fuel injectors 1.9 TDI

[FiatFrom32]

Car is Fiat Ducato 1,9 TDI 1991.
I have en gine issues as described before.

I will try to remove and inspect fuel injectors.

So far I have removed fuel rail as you can se on pictures,

What is the purpose of the hoses between thne fuel injectors?

How do I remove the fuel injectors?

 

[portland_bill]

Hoses: As well as injecting fuel, the internals of the injector are lubricated by the fuel. There is some internal leakage from the fuel rail to do this, and that excess is drained back into the low presure system, to go around again. The hoses will connect all together, then there will be one at the end connected either in the spill rerurn to the tank, or back into the input side of the pump.

Removal: There will most likely be clamps of some sort holding the injectors in, but once those are removed, the injectors are likely to be tight in the head. A small slide hammer is used to get them out, like this: Amazon product ASIN B0045KC928 but you must check the thread size is correct, although most are standard.

When refitting, use new sealing washers. And you must get the old ones out, which may come out attached to the bottom of the injector, or may be stick in the bottom of the hole.

Inspecting the injectors will probably show nothing. There may be a local specialist who can test them for you. Don't attach them to the fuel rail and apply rail pressure, as the fuel spray is at very high pressure, and is lethal!

 

[FiatFrom32]

Thank you for answer. Do I have to remove the internal hoses before removing injectors?

 

[bugsymike]

Looking at the photo, they look like Bosch injectors, like older VW diesels, pre common rail so no electrics, so after removing the high pressure unions and the leak off pipes (which often leak) you need special deep socket to fit round the nut section of the injector close to the head.
I was going to take a photo of mine but so long since last used I can't find it. I used to use it with a 3/4 bar and an adapter as it was very tight. As I recall they are a taper fit so no sealing washer. Suggest you look at a new injector for your model on eBay to see what I mean.
As portland_bill says very high pressure as with any diesel, so don't get in the way of the spray, it may look like a mist, but when at college in the 1960s the lecturer placed a piece of A4 paper in front of the spray then held it up to the light , it had punched a hole right through and will do the same with your finger etc. Modern diesels are even higher pressure!!!

 

[portland_bill]

Thank you for answer. Do I have to remove the internal hoses before removing injectors?

Not sure what you mean here, perhaps something has got lost in translation. There are no hoses inside the engine, or inside the injector. All hoses are visible, as your pictures show. You will need to remove those, or else you'll need to remove all injectors together as one, which just makes things more difficult.

Bugsymike is suggesting that the injectors may be threaded in, not something I've seen, but I have tried to avoid getting close to diesels.
If the injector is threaded in, then as bugsymike says, it will need unscrewing, requiring a special deep socket. The pipes will have to be off for that.
If the injector is just clamped in, there will be a clamp at the head, and once removed, the slide hammer tool will be needed to get them out. Some swearing may be necessary.
I still doubt that this will find or fix the issue you have, so unless you are sure an injector is a problem, they may be best left alone. The problem you described in another thread is more likely to be an injection timing issue, rather than an injector problem.

When you have the injector in your hand, the tip may be dirty, but you are unlikely to see anything else that might help your diagnosis. Cleaning is a specialist job, don't take a wire brush to it, you are likely to damage it.

In the UK, as well as normal garages, there are diesel specialists, often working under the Bosch brand name. Those guys really know their stuff, and if something similar exists in Sweden, would be a good place to go. Taking things apart hoping to find an obvious answer is unlikely to work for you, especially with a diesel, but does carry a high risk of damage or injury, unless you have training, experience, or really know what you are doing. Take care.

 

[FiatFrom32]

Now I managed to take out injectors. I got a 27 mm deep sprocket.

As you can see at the pictures injector nr two and the hole has engine oil. Rest of them looks clean. Some failure this cylinder

 

[bugsymike]

Yes , that is exactly the type of injectors I expected, with taper as a seal so no gasket. Early VWs used the same type of injectors.
Obviously engine missing on that cylinder, are you able to give it a compression test. I see you now know it is No.2 misfiring. What I would have done at the beginning would have been to crack off each union with engine running to find the faulty cylinder. You can't do that on modern diesels as if one leaks the engine stops! As a quick test with injectors back in and engine running you can slacken the high pressure union on each individually and retighten to check the dirty injector in a different cylinder to see if the misfire follows it, hence faulty injector. Be careful with the socket as it is possible to snap off the little bleed off unions. The other thing with those bleed off pipes is once disturbed they have a tendency to leak through the cotton covering, engine will still run happily but diesel oil will spill all over engine! Finally be careful reseating the injector pipes, I see you have taken them all right off, normally I would just slacken them at the pump and ease away from the injectors. Do not bend!
When refitting them they are easy to bleed , just crank over with the injector unions slack then as it the air stops flowing re tighten and engine will start.

 

[FiatFrom32]

As a quick test with injectors back in and engine running you can slacken the high pressure union on each individually and retighten to check the dirty injector in a different cylinder to see if the misfire follows it, hence faulty injector

Thanks for your advice. Some time before I tried to slacken the fuel on each individually to make sure have fuel supply to each injector. I dont recall difference in engine noise.

Oil on injector: This can be due to leak in piston seals/rings?

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for your advice. Some time before I tried to slacken the fuel on each individually to make sure have fuel supply to each injector. I dont recall difference in engine noise.

Oil on injector: This can be due to leak in piston seals/rings?

I am not sure I saw the start of your query on the forum, what was the initial problem, if it is burning oil, it can do that without misfire. If it was misfiring on no.2 and you undid a different one you would notice it for sure as engine wouldn't run on only two cylinders

 

[FiatFrom32]

I am not sure I saw the start of your query on the forum, what was the initial problem, if it is burning oil, it can do that without misfire. If it was misfiring on no.2 and you undid a different one you would notice it for sure as engine wouldn't run on only two cylinders

The problem is very rough idle, mechanical noise, lack of power, white smelly smoke.

You got a point. If I undid another injector and the motor still runing then injector nr 2 works

Maybe I will take away the oil pan and look for metal rests. I read that in some cars you can inspect main bearings if you take away oil pan

 

[bugsymike]

The problem is very rough idle, mechanical noise, lack of power, white smelly smoke.

You got a point. If I undid another injector and the motor still runing then injector nr 2 works

Maybe I will take away the oil pan and look for metal rests. I read that in some cars you can inspect main bearings if you take away oil pan

What is the timing like? Both valve and injector timing?
White smelly smoke, particularly from cold is unburnt fuel due to low compression often, but if timing out it could run like you describe , but that doesn't account for the oil on the injector and noise (piston/broke?, story of my life)
No chance of a compression test?
If engine sound / strong every injector you slacken the should show a definite fall off in power.
Pity it isn't a Ducato 2.8TDi 122Hp I had a 1998 Fiat Ducato Maxi , big van but went really well, I bought it from one of my customers as it was last ones before ECUs, and put the engine in an old cabin cruiser boat I had, in place of a petrol 150HP V6 Volvo Penta, by the time I finished adjusting everything it went nearly as well as the original did when new but half the fuel consumption. They were SOFIM engines and I was familiar with them, as in rear wheel drive form I used them in five Iveco Dailys.
)

 

[FiatFrom32]

Im reading right now about timing check. I didnt see any marks on the wheels but on this car it is about locking the wheel with bults.
The timing chain can have "jumped a tooth" maybe but this doesnt explain why just one cylinder have problems

 

[bugsymike]

Im reading right now about timing check. I didnt see any marks on the wheels but on this car it is about locking the wheel with bults.
The timing chain can have "jumped a tooth" maybe but this doesnt explain why just one cylinder have problems

I agree it wouldn't account for just one cylinder with oil, that is why a compression test is more conclusive.
People often talk about" chains jumping a tooth" in my experience they are either wrong from the start or the chain is so loose it destroys everything!
This fault developed ? it is not a case of you having had some work done? I will read this tomorrow.

 

[portland_bill]

Oil in one cylinder can be from one of several causes.
Leaking valve stem seals.
Broken or worn piston rings.
Head gasket leak. If oilway passes near to cyl2, that one would get the oil.
Cracked head or block can also be a cause, but much less likely.

A compression check might help diagnose. Needs a proper diesel compression tester, as pressures are too high for normal petrol testers.

My guess is head will have to come off, then you'll see if it is rings, or gasket. Valve seals would be replaced as a routine with a head off job.

 

[bugsymike]

Oil in one cylinder can be from one of several causes.
Leaking valve stem seals.
Broken or worn piston rings.
Head gasket leak. If oilway passes near to cyl2, that one would get the oil.
Cracked head or block can also be a cause, but much less likely.

A compression check might help diagnose. Needs a proper diesel compression tester, as pressures are too high for normal petrol testers.

My guess is head will have to come off, then you'll see if it is rings, or gasket. Valve seals would be replaced as a routine with a head off job.

Before you go ahead with a major strip down, move the faulty / suspect injector, the one with oil on, to a different cylinder , get it started again and test which cylinder is missing now. If the suspect injector still misses in the new position then replace or repair it. If engine still missing on no2, then I as a "professional" would perform a compression test on all cylinders and then do a "leak test" to ascertain direction to go. The leak test can show if pressure is lost past a piston, a valve, or a head gasket into a cooling system etc. and on which cylinder, so it is a very useful tool I have used many times.
Sorry not the sort of thing you can do at the side of a road, without specialist tools, but it does narrow things down before starting a major stripdown.
Unless piston/ring damage has caused major scoring of the cylinder bores you may not see it even with the head off, though it is possible to place all pistons at equal height and put the same amount of engine oil on top of each piston and see if one drains away past the piston first which would be a guide to how good a seal it is making.

 

[portland_bill]

A professional leak test tool is a wonderful thing, with two gauges to show input pressure and leakage. Expensive, and hardly justifiable for any DIYer.
When my brother's Land Rover had an issue, I made an adaptor to fit a tyre valve to a cylinder. The Land Rover glow plugs used a 10mm fine thread, and I found a banjo bolt with the same thread. I pulled apart an old tyre valve from a bicycle inner tube, and soldered it into the banjo outlet. This allowed me to fit it into each cylinder in turn and attach my airline to the valve and see where the pressure went. In his case, straight back out the adjacent cylinder.
What is possible will depend on location and threads of the glow plugs or injectors, and availability of suitable fittings for attachment of a connection.
Sorry, its a really poor picture.

 

[bugsymike]

As PB says hardly DIY, but as he shows with a little ingenuity something can be made up which can do the job. I had never used one until in the late 1970s the garage I was foreman at was awarded a workshop prize from the car importers of a load of Sun Diagnostic tools for petrol engines which included the petrol leak tester, it soon proved it's worth.
I made up a simple adaptor using a old spark plug and hose etc. and later ones for diesels for my own use, the gauges to measure percentage of loss etc. are not totally necessary, so as long as you have access to a reasonable compressor you can do the job. You will need to read up about exactly how to use it, especially regarding finding TDC and locking the engine on the cylinder you are testing, it is not a 5 min. job , but is good for accurate assessment of problem.For a photo I found them in the back of my garage suffering from the damp a bit and somewhere I have a diesel timing light and rev counter that runs from the impulse from the no.1 injector pipe, not relevant for modern vehicles, but essential in the old days. The last time I used it was in a boat, I put a pre ECU 2.8TDi Ducato engine in when changing props to get the optimum performance.
Sorry if I am going on and you may be not in a position to do any of this yourself. Mike

 

[FiatFrom32]

Maybe I will do a compression test. I have a single gauge and plenty adapters as shown in your picture

Now I try to find out how I find TDC and sync the pulleys. I dont se any marks anywhere. Just som paint marks

 

[bugsymike]

Not sure if my book goes back that far, but what engine code etc?
When coming up on compression on no1 we had whistle that went in the injector hole and with a little practice back and forth you could find tdc. With cam cover off if firing on no.1 then no.4 inlet and exhaust cam lobes would be on the rock i.e. which ever way the cam turned it would move a valve.
At college we were shown how to time an engine with no timing marks at all! Probably not precise enough for modern engines but certainly worked in the old days

 

[FiatFrom32]

The engine code 280.A1.000
I tried to switch injectors 2 and 3 and the problem oil on the injector moved with the injector.

I then cleaned the injectors according to this guide:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/299321-diesel-injector-cleaning-diy.html

Unfortunately I dont have an injector tester at home

I installed the injectors again but unfortuinelately the original problem not solved. Still rough idle, noise as a cylinder missing