General How do you charge twin air battery

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General How do you charge twin air battery

I agree that you shouldn’t “just get the sh*t ripped out of you for asking a quite sensible question” (which in my case concerned where to connect the negative terminal for a top up charge)

Being told in response that “you have no need to be charging the battery” at 85% isn’t helpful - I think that’s for me to decide?
Have to say, although the thread has "drifted" somewhat, it's making a very interesting read.

Let's get back to the question asked thought. We're talking about charging this battery and where to connect the negative charger lead - taking into account that this particular lead on your charger doesn't have much "reach". I said earlier in the thread that I prefer not to disconnect battery terminals unless I'm doing something - like changing the battery etc - which makes it unavoidable. I've now charged a number of different makes of vehicles with stop start systems by connecting the battery charger positive lead to the battery positive terminal and the negative lead to the engine block or other obvious chassis earth point without disconnecting either the pos or neg battery terminals and had no issues at all. My charger leads are long enough to allow me to do this without any problems but you tell us your's are not. So connect a jump lead (or fabricated extension wire - we're talking small currents here, around 10 amps would be a pretty "meaty" smart charger output and 5 or 6 amps is very common) to the engine block, gearbox casing, chassis earth point, you get the idea I'm sure, and then connect the other end of the lead to the charger negative lead clamp. You don't even need to worry much about this connection being uninsulated as it's on the earth side so, as long as it doesn't contact the battery positive terminal, it can't do any harm - wrap an old rag round it if you like?

Believe me I completely understand your nervousness about possibly damaging electronics on modern cars. I remember very well when we started to see the Lucas ACR alternators appearing on cars which had previously come with dynamos. There were a lot of "horror" stories at the time about how easy it was to blow the diode packs on them, and indeed, if you were stupid enough to connected the battery leads the wrong way round they would indeed be blown and a new alternator would be required. I well remember the boss coming over to us during a tea break - we had a big "volcano" waste oil burner with old car seats and a sofa arranged around it in the back of the workshop - and telling us in no uncertain terms that if any of us did that the cost would be coming out of our wages! Ever since automotive electronics is something I approach with great caution and respect. However my thinking is that when the battery is being charged normally by the car's alternator, the flow of electricity applied to the system and the involvement of the battery condition monitor will be the same as from the charger when connected as above.

I am very much in the same situation as you regarding low vehicle usage. Our Panda is abused terribly as it does mostly very short shopping trips for over 90% of it's running and the Scala doesn't do much more in terms of mileage although it does go out to my boy's house and back once a week which is a round trip of about 40 miles but it often then sit's on the drive for a week without being started. The Ibiza I had before that suffered the same usage and it's battery failed early which was why I started putting it on the smart charger and I never had another problem with it 'till I sold it some 6 years later. I'm doing the same with the Scala. I check the standing battery voltage - which is usually around 12.5/12.6 volts the day after the run out and when/if it falls by much - so maybe 12.3/12.4 - I whack the charger on. I monitor my two shop batteries in much the same way and stick the charger on them when needed and they've both survived for many years and are able to jump start vehicles with plenty of "vigor"

I've looked into battery condition monitors in some depth and there are a number of types but the common ones seem to fall into two main groups of interest to us DIY types. Those which seem to be able to "reset" themselves when a new battery is fitted - the Fiat ones seem to be this type, but I don't yet own a Fiat with a battery monitor so I'm just going by what I read - and the type which requires intervention by way of resetting with a scanner or dealer tool. Unfortunately for me the VAG ones are this type. If you have the type that requires resetting then ignore this at your peril. Unfortunately with this type, if you fit a new battery but don't reset the ecu then, initially, all will seem to be well. However the charging system ecu will be applying a charging regime which is modified for a failing battery and this will slowly damage the new battery (I think what it does is over charges the battery so causes electrolyte to gas and heat damages the plates?) My friend, who owns our local VAG independent tells me a new battery can fail within a year to 18 months if the reset is not carried out. I suppose it depends on how bad the old battery was and therefore how much the charging regime had been modified before the new battery was fitted. Reading between the lines I think the "auto resetting" type are more basic and concern themselves with restricting what can pull current when battery condition is less than optimal - so cuts out stop/start and maybe other "big" current consumers to conserve battery power. Whereas the type which need to be reset do all that but also alter the charge being applied as the battery internal resistance increases with sulphation. This type seem to only be able to alter in the one direction - think of a ratchet strap. it can tighten, but to loosen it has to have the ratchet mechanism released.

Hope that was helpful - and please remember, this is all just what I've found and experienced. It works for me but I'm not promising in any way that you won't manage to damage something by not doing what the owners manual recommends.
 
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Have to say, although the thread has "drifted" somewhat, it's making a very interesting read.

Let's get back to the question asked thought. We're talking about charging this battery and where to connect the negative charger lead - taking into account that this particular lead on your charger doesn't have much "reach". I said earlier in the thread that I prefer not to disconnect battery terminals unless I'm doing something - like changing the battery etc - which makes it unavoidable. I've now charged a number of different makes of vehicles with stop start systems by connecting the battery charger positive lead to the battery positive terminal and the negative lead to the engine block or other obvious chassis earth point without disconnecting either the pos or neg battery terminals and had no issues at all. My charger leads are long enough to allow me to do this without any problems but you tell us your's are not. So connect a jump lead (or fabricated extension wire - we're talking small currents here, around 10 amps would be a pretty "meaty" smart charger output and 5 or 6 amps is very common) to the engine block, gearbox casing, chassis earth point, you get the idea I'm sure, and then connect the other end of the lead to the charger negative lead clamp. You don't even need to worry much about this connection being uninsulated as it's on the earth side so, as long as it doesn't contact the battery positive terminal, it can't do any harm - wrap an old rag round it if you like?

Believe me I completely understand your nervousness about possibly damaging electronics on modern cars. I remember very well when we started to see the Lucas ACR alternators appearing on cars which had previously come with dynamos. There were a lot of "horror" stories at the time about how easy it was to blow the diode packs on them, and indeed, if you were stupid enough to connected the battery leads the wrong way round they would indeed be blown and a new alternator would be required. I well remember the boss coming over to us during a tea break - we had a big "volcano" waste oil burner with old car seats and a sofa arranged around it in the back of the workshop - and telling us in no uncertain terms that if any of us did that the cost would be coming out of our wages! Ever since automotive electronics is something I approach with great caution and respect. However my thinking is that when the battery is being charged normally by the car's alternator, the flow of electricity applied to the system and the involvement of the battery condition monitor will be the same as from the charger when connected as above.

I am very much in the same situation as you regarding low vehicle usage. Our Panda is abused terribly as it does mostly very short shopping trips for over 90% of it's running and the Scala doesn't do much more in terms of mileage although it does go out to my boy's house and back once a week which is a round trip of about 40 miles but it often then sit's on the drive for a week without being started. The Ibiza I had before that suffered the same usage and it's battery failed early which was why I started putting it on the smart charger and I never had another problem with it 'till I sold it some 6 years later. I'm doing the same with the Scala. I check the standing battery voltage - which is usually around 12.5/12.6 volts the day after the run out and when/if it falls by much - so maybe 12.3/12.4 - I whack the charger on. I monitor my two shop batteries in much the same way and stick the charger on them when needed and they've both survived for many years and are able to jump start vehicles with plenty of "vigor"

I've looked into battery condition monitors in some depth and there are a number of types but the common ones seem to fall into two main groups of interest to us DIY types. Those which seem to be able to "reset" themselves when a new battery is fitted - the Fiat ones seem to be this type, but I don't yet own a Fiat with a battery monitor so I'm just going by what I read - and the type which requires intervention by way of resetting with a scanner or dealer tool. Unfortunately for me the VAG ones are this type. If you have the type that requires resetting then ignore this at your peril. Unfortunately with this type, if you fit a new battery but don't reset the ecu then, initially, all will seem to be well. However the charging system ecu will be applying a charging regime which is modified for a failing battery and this will slowly damage the new battery (I think what it does is over charges the battery so causes electrolyte to gas and heat damages the plates?) My friend, who owns our local VAG independent tells me a new battery can fail within a year to 18 months if the reset is not carried out. I suppose it depends on how bad the old battery was and therefore how much the charging regime had been modified before the new battery was fitted. Reading between the lines I think the "auto resetting" type are more basic and concern themselves with restricting what can pull current when battery condition is less than optimal - so cuts out stop/start and maybe other "big" current consumers to conserve battery power. Whereas the type which need to be reset do all that but also alter the charge being applied as the battery internal resistance increases with sulphation. This type seem to only be able to alter in the one direction - think of a ratchet strap. it can tighten, but to loosen it has to have the ratchet mechanism released.

Hope that was helpful - and please remember, this is all just what I've found and experienced. It works for me but I'm not promising in any way that you won't manage to damage something by not doing what the owners manual recommends.
You’re right about VAG and resetting.So far as I can tell (I looked for it in MES when replacing my battery) there isn’t such a setting on the Panda. The two things Fiat mentions - steering and boot reset are reset simply by opening/closing, and driving :)
 
Update
1. Thanks for the various contributions in this thread - they’ve added to my knowledge+understanding
2. I’ve had a close look at the negative terminal assembly and now understand what’s going on - here’s another brand (can’t find a good pic of the Fiat Panda one, but this Bosch unit is a similar set up) with my annotations
IMG_7906.jpeg


3. As you all know, the Panda’s negative terminal cable clips on to the connection pole, and the other end of the cable connects to earth on the engine block somewhere deep in the engine bay (out of reach of my charger clamp wires) and what I had read in various threads about “you must not connect to the -ve terminal, you must connect to a ground / body earth or it can fry the sensor” had caused me much anxiety
4. Fortunately it turns out that, because of the assembly, it really doesn’t matter which end of the cable the charger clamp connects to because the whole cable +pole +bracket is an integral connector, and on the Panda set up there’s a short length of the metal bracket exposed right at the end of the cable release button which easily takes the charger clamp (after cleaning it) as shown here:

IMG_7900.jpeg


5. All of the above gave me the confidence to finally go ahead this afternoon. I connected up the smart charger (following all the safety protocols), switched on, and the unit display lit up and… it just worked!
6. When the display reverted to “Flo” (fully charged) I disconnected everything (again in the right order) and then started up.
No warning lights. No error codes. Nothing. And after a test drive nothing again.

So, the answers to the OP’s question (on page 1) were correct - you don’t have to disconnect the negative connection cable (as instructed to do in the handbook). But you do need to understand the ‘dos’ and ‘donts’ as set out in this thread.

Again, thanks to everyone for their help.
 
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Update
1. Thanks for the various contributions in this thread - they’ve added to my knowledge+understanding
2. I’ve had a close look at the negative terminal assembly and now understand what’s going on - here’s another brand (can’t find a good pic of the Fiat Panda one, but this Bosch unit is a similar set up) with my annotations
View attachment 456951

3. As you all know, the Panda’s negative terminal cable clips on to the connection pole, and the other end of the cable connects to earth on the engine block somewhere deep in the engine bay (out of reach of my charger clamp wires) and what I had read in various threads about “you must not connect to the -ve terminal, you must connect to a ground / body earth or it can fry the sensor” had caused me much anxiety
4. Fortunately it turns out that, because of the assembly, it really doesn’t matter which end of the cable the charger clamp connects to because the whole cable +pole +bracket is an integral connector, and on the Panda set up there’s a short length of the metal bracket exposed right at the end of the cable release button which easily takes the charger clamp (after cleaning it) as shown here:

View attachment 456954

5. All of the above gave me the confidence to finally go ahead this afternoon. I connected up the smart charger (following all the safety protocols), switched on, and the unit display lit up and… it just worked!
6. When the display reverted to “Flo” (fully charged) I disconnected everything (again in the right order) and then started up.
No warning lights. No error codes. Nothing. And after a test drive nothing again.

So, the answers to the OP’s question (on page 1) were correct - you don’t have to disconnect the negative connection cable (as instructed to do in the handbook). But you do need to understand the ‘dos’ and ‘donts’ as set out in this thread.

Again, thanks to everyone for their help.
Great! So glad you've resolved it. It looks pretty clear from your last picture that connecting as you have is basically the same as connecting to the engine block/gearbox casing/chassis earth - it's the battery end of the earth lead, so basically what several of us have been recommending.

It's nerve wracking is this electronics stuff, isn't it? Trouble is you really often only get the one chance to get it right or, expensively, ruin something!

Can I suggest the battery terminal might benefit from some vaseline or dedicated battery terminal preservative like this stuff: https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/duri...CEimLtHs7hhdG3AQJDAw3g9b3iLMHAHrYYyla2L3NxRDY
 
Now I understand your comment @JayAre about not reaching an earth point with your cable clip. The replies about connecting to an ‘earth point’ on the chassis or engine didn’t mean ‘where the other end of the main negative wire goes’ (you’d never reach that!)… they just mean ‘to something metal under the bonnet’, since (very nearly) all the metal parts of the car act as the ‘negative’ or earth return back to the battery (because the negative side of the battery is connected to the car bodywork, making anything metal screwed to the engine or bodywork is an ‘earth point’). The very few exceptions include the bonnet lock (because that’s screwed to a plastic panel) and parts of the aircon pipes.
Yes, where you’ve connected will work, but so would any of these places in the photos (diesel Panda here, but similar on TwinAir)

The scratches in the red circle (first photo) are where the breakdown co put their jump lead clip to start the car when my alternator packed up over a year ago. No rust because the bodywork is galvanised at the factory.
1734351677506.png
 

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I understand your comment @JayAre about not reaching an earth point with your cable clip

- as mentioned earlier, the charger cable clamps (detachable) were on too short a cable to securely connect the negative clamp elsewhere and I’m leery of DIY (for me =bodged🤣) electrical ‘extensions’ +cost/hassle of getting same
- the ‘next door’ ECU (earthed) was within reach, but I didn’t think that was a good idea…
- once I’d sussed the layout of the battery sensor assembly, it became clear that the exposed bracket connecting the negative cable post+sensor was the ideal option (in fact it’s almost as if Fiat designed it for that purpose, the clamp fits so well)
 
- as mentioned earlier, the charger cable clamps (detachable) were on too short a cable to securely connect the negative clamp elsewhere and I’m leery of DIY (for me =bodged🤣) electrical ‘extensions’ +cost/hassle of getting same
- the ‘next door’ ECU (earthed) was within reach, but I didn’t think that was a good idea…
- once I’d sussed the layout of the battery sensor assembly, it became clear that the exposed bracket connecting the negative cable post+sensor was the ideal option (in fact it’s almost as if Fiat designed it for that purpose, the clamp fits so well)
Yes, although probably a good earth, I would avoid the case of an ECU too.
 
Its sensible to follow the handbook and be certain of avoiding possible issues. Do anything else at your own risk.
I have done per the handbook, having flattened the battery when the car was fairly new, and have also charged by connecting directly to the terminal clamp bolt doing a top up during lockdown without any problems with both battery leads connected.
I do not know how the battery sensor works or the physics behind it. My assumption has been that if the charger is connected to the battery its just doing what the alternator the alternator does at a lower level. If the battery voltage doesnt change substantially while the engine is off I guess the sensor accepts this degree of change within tolerances o fthe software. Battery voltage does change when the car is turned off.
In reality is simple to disconnect the battery and the only draw back is having to reset the computer and clock etc so why not just follow the handbook advice. The reason I dont't is pure laziness and I hope it dosnt bite me in the rear end!
 
I do not know how the battery sensor works or the physics behind it. My assumption has been that if the charger is connected to the battery its just doing what the alternator the alternator does at a lower level. If the battery voltage doesnt change substantially while the engine is off I guess the sensor accepts this degree of change within tolerances o fthe software

the connection, as explained, puts the battery sensor ‘in line’ (‘series’ I believe is the correct term) with the battery charger in the electrical circuit (which of course is designed to flow in both directions as part of the normal running of the car)

The battery charger displayed a low amperage charge rate (c 1.3A) which, I guess, is fully within normal day to day operating tolerance of the car (and, as you correctly say, replicating “what the alternator does”) and being connected in this way the battery sensor would be fully “aware” of the current flowing into the battery and therefore able to process this information and “update” itself

Having closely inspected and understood the battery sensor assembly I was satisfied that this was the case and that risk had been eliminated

I am not surprised the manufacturer recommend a ‘fool proof’ zero risk procedure - their lawyers would insist - despite the inconvenience this might cause the owner (plus, for me, perceived further +unknown risks of disconnecting the supply to a highly complex, interrelated assemblage of computer modules…)

Note to add: this is about ‘top up’ charging only, not jump starting - now that’s a whole different kettle of worms…🤣
 
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