Technical Help! No vacuum to the turbo actuator

[millymoon]

Hi, I'm keen to know if you managed to do this, given that the weather's not been too good lately. Got into a discussion with my ex at the weekend as he's been helping whenever he's down and he feels my problem may be that the wastegate is coked up. (Now he decides to mention this!!) Is this the same thing that we're talking about here? Am I confusing turbo and wastegate/actuator as being separate when they are in fact the same thing?? I've now started searching on the forum about fixing the wastegate and someone has suggested 'blowing air' into it to clear any debris. Whilst I really like the cheapness and ease of this possible solution, what would be the ramifications of this? Would any crap inside be blown out the other side and damage something else? Could the innotech turbo clean kit help here? Also, I've felt all along the wastegate rod doesn't move too freely of it's own accord and copius amounts of WD40 have not helped in the slightest, is there a better solution for cleaning/greasing it? As always any thoughts are most gratefully received.

 

[jwmultipla]

Hi millymoon,

the wastegate rod, once disconnected from the actuator should move very freely. If there is any resistance or it is very stiff then this will mean that the valve inside the turbo that it operates is probably stuck open hence no turbo pressure build up. The way it works is the turbo builds up pressure and at a pre determined point the pressure sensor tells the ecu that maximum boost has been reached and then the ecu operates the wastegate actuator which 'dumps' the excess turbo pressure. It sounds like yours is stuck open therefore it wont build up any pressure and the ecu knows something is wrong as it knows where your foot is on the pedal and how fast the engine is going etc etc and it just backs the fuel off (limp mode) because it can not acheive what is being asked of it.

justin

 

[T14086]

* quick footnote, not all wastegates operate in the same manner so always check tech manual first.

 

[millymoon]

Thanks Guys. Any advice on how I can fix this. Do I need to disconnect and clean/grease it somehow. Please don't tell me I have to take out the turbo

 

[millymoon]

Hi, I've just been reading other posts (Not sure that is a good thing!) I know we've previously discussed variable vanes on the turbo but I didn't realise that these were usually INSTEAD of a wastegate. [FONT=&quot]I thought they were two different things entirely! [/FONT]So can anyone confirm that my car[FONT=&quot] has a variable vane turbo (NOT a wastegate) and the adjustable vanes are controlled by a vacuum operated actuator mounted on the turbo and the actuator is controlled by a boost valve. Sorry to go back to basics, I feel i'm going round in circles!

I know the actuator has no vacuum whatsoever (although there is vacuum this side of it) and the actuator rod perhaps doesn't move as freely as it should. What options am I left with?? Is the turbo clean option still a possiblity or is there another avenue I should head down first?? [/FONT]:bang: As always ALL thoughts are MOST welcome.

 

[T14086]

your car has a wastegate and is fixed vane type.

 

[millymoon]

Thank you for clarifying

 

[multiplied]

hi, im confused now. if your car has actuator rod coming out of turbo & vacuum hose going to overboost valve (you say you replaced this), then it IS a variable vane turbo.
if it has a dump valve, then it is fixed vane- according to what i have read

 

[millymoon]

Hiya, have definitely replaced the overboost valve so will have to assume variable vane? How is your problem at the moment? Did the weather hold off enough for you to use innotech??

 

[widemouthfrog]

Been following this thread and decided to go looking for a bit of insight into our (i.e. Multipla) turbos on the web.

It appears that the earliest (105hp) diesel Multis have a fixed geometry turbo; later ones (110 ans 115hp) have a Garrett 1749V VGT (Variable Geometry Turbocharger). Typing this model ID into google returns an avalanche of info. It looks like this turbo is fitted to loads of different car makes (VW, Peugeot, Fiat) with minor variations to suit each application.

I found this link which has some very nice diagrams showing the working principles of the VGT:

http://stilo-club.com/viewtopic.php?p=304668

As fitted to the trusty Stilo, so may be a close relation to those fitted to the Multi. The operating mech for the vanes is a work of art - I never realised that that lot cranked into effect every time our little motors spool up.

Can anyone translate the text?!

 

[millymoon]

Many thanks widemouthfrog. I am now REALLY concerned. I have checked back over previous correspondence concerning my car and the log book states it's a 105bhp which should be a fixed vane. But the overboost valve has definitely been changed, possibly suggesting it is a variable vane turbo, so the big question is.... Has the wrong turbo been fitted to my car?? Is it possible?? What would be the consequences of fitting the wrong turbo - Surely the car wouldn't work at all?? Really worried now! Please can someone clarify... All help/thoughts gratefully received

 

[multiplied]

hi millymoon,
some good posts just above, mine is definately variable vane turbo, its a 2004 115bhp.
as for yours, looks like verification definately needed?, did your replacement turbo work ok first of all?, if it did...how long for?,
dont take what i put as gospel, i just retrieved some information from various threads, but as you know, while helpfull, some are contradicting here & there.
just from what i have read so far i get the impression that the overboost valve is only fitted as part of the variable vane turbo set up, the fixed vane having a dump valve?
this may be wrong, but definately worth getting to the bottom of.
first time i could get to do car is this weekend and i have been just too busy trying to earn some much needed pennies!, got a small job to finish for someone this morning, but may get chance this afternoon to look at car. im very confident the turbo clean will sort out my vanes & that is the problem i have, my main concern is actualy getting to & seperating exhaust part from turbo- but clearly it can be done .
will definately keep you posted.

 

[multiplied]

well, late on this afternoon i got the car up on ramps & started on the job of getting exhaust off turbo.
sprayed nuts with wd40 & removed 3 bolts holding exhaust to cylindracal exhaust section. exhaust came apart fairly easy, but this is just to the large cylindracal part thats now attached to turbo , i looked inside this bit with a torch & it is full of a honeycombed metal inside, so i know i have to remove this also to seperate it from turbo exhaust small section.
in order to do this i have to remove the two heat shields covering turbo area, bottom one i have loose now, but top one the two bolts are rusted & socket slips on them.
the "clamp" i need to undo is behind the top section (just visible using torch). its like an oval shaped jubilee clip.
so next job is to somehow remove top heat shield & remove large jubilee clip & that should be access to where i need.
will keep you posted

 

[widemouthfrog]

This page:

http://www.btnturbo.com/parts/model/fiat/multipla.aspx

Lists the 4 types of turbo fitted to the diesel Multipla. If you can get sight of your turbo, you should be able to read the type number off of the side of it. Had a quick look at mine and it's difficult to get at, but in daylight I reckon I could probably see the number with the help of a torch and a small mirror.

 

[millymoon]

Thanks Guys. Good luck Multiplied Unfortunately I've been relying on three different mechanics to help me with this. All have stated the turbo is fine and the problem is ECU or wiring, however, I'm now fairly convinced my car has the wrong turbo fitted. Thanks for your turbo list widemouthfrog. I did some research late last night and found exactly the same turbo numbers you have found - and not one of them is the turbo in my car! My log book states the car is a 2001 105bhp, but 2001 could just be when the car was registered. When I bought the car, the turbo had been removed and was in the boot so the assumption was that this was the turbo from the car - part no. 46786078.

The majority of turbo websites state it should be part no. 46480117. I have however, tracked one website linking my turbo to a multipla but it did not give bhp. This turbo is generally fitted to an 110bhp Alfa Romeo.

To my knowledge, the turbo I have has NEVER 'kicked in' although all 3 mechanics claim they can hear it working and there is absolutely no fault with it! :bang: Would a turbo that is usually fitted to a 110bhp car work on a 105bhp car?? All thoughts VERY gratefully received.

 

[jwmultipla]

Hi Millymoon

have you checked Eper (fiat parts) just to double check the spec of your car etc? might be worth doing this just to confirm. Do you know where the replacement turbo came from? ie details of vehicle. It does sound like the turbo has been identified as being faulty but the replacement part is not correct for your car. this could have an effect on how it operates as sensors etc are lookin for one thing and another thing is happening. It's a shame you don't have the original turbo to compare. sadly it might be the case that you will have to source the correct turbo for your car before you can proceed. there may be nothing wrong with the turbo that is fitted but if it's not compatible with your engine management system then it's never going to work.

justin

 

[multiplied]

hi, well today i received an irwin bolt-grip socket set i had ordered from screwfix to remove the rusted/rounded off bolts on the top-most heat shield. going to attempt job this coming weekend (car all ready still up on ramps).
i know the irwin bolt grip socket will work with ease , i had a sump plug on the multipla completely rounded off and nothing would shift it, but my neighbours mechanic friend used the irwin bolt grip socket & it shifted the sump plug off in 10 seconds flat.
as for your turbo, if it is wrong, you need to have the exact part number for the correct one that is stamped on the garrett turbo & source a working identical one from a breakers (one that gives a guarantee).
i would be very very surprised if your problem was wiring or ecu related.

 

[multiplied]

well over the xmas period i managed to remove both heat shields and seperate exhaust cat from turbo. (none of this was easy)
i made a very good leak free seal to the turbo & have now filled it with the innotech turbo clean 1. got to leave it in for an hour & keep popping out to move the actuator rod up and down with a screwdriver.
going to remove the fuel filter while im waiting, to add the innotech number 3 additive to the fuel. after the hour i will remove the seal & spray in innotech can number 2 to clean out the gunge.

then its just a case of putting everything back together.........

 

[millymoon]

WoW! still keeping my fingers crossed for you. It sounds like a lot of effort went into that so you certainly deserve to have fixed it.

I haven't even been near my car I checked the website you mentioned, from a small parts point of view it's brilliant, but still no luck tracking down the correct turbo number... However, the only websites who can link it to a Multipla link it to a 2004 model so it really is looking unlikely that it's the right one for mine :bang: Will take another look this next week. Keep me posted on yours please

 

[matt8772]

Hiya, have definitely replaced the overboost valve so will have to assume variable vane? How is your problem at the moment? Did the weather hold off enough for you to use innotech??

you'd have an overboost valve whether it was variable or fixed geometry.