Technical Help! No vacuum to the turbo actuator

[millymoon]

Justin you are a huge STAR!:worship: Will see if I can get hold of a colour key for the diagram - am so pleased it makes sense to someone! As you can see, there are at least two of us with an identical problem and our budgets look identical too! I'll be really gutted if this doesn't fix it!

Multiplied.. thank you so much for the tip on the MOT. Hadn't thought of that at all! But may try what Justin has suggested before going down the MOT route as car currently off the road anyway..

 

[widemouthfrog]

Hi Millymoon

Just to be clear, the split I described wasn't in the red hose itself, it was in the short length of connecting rubber tube. The red tube is pushed into it.

If you are completely stumped, I'd recommend a trip to see Nick at Optima. He is Fiat/Alfa trained and knows them very well. He gives advice freely, likes Multiplas, and he's a lot cheaper than a franchised Fiat dealer!

 

[millymoon]

Oh wow! I haven't tried that! Thanks for clarifying. I'll take a look tomorrow.. If it's not that (but will keep fingers crossed!) I'll see if we can take the earlier advice and check the wire, but at least I now know there's a decent mechanic nearby who may be able to help if all other avenues fail!! Thanks so much to you all for your help so far. You've all given fantastic advice

 

[millymoon]

Tried the connector to the red tube, but all ok. Put a vacuum guage on to test the vacuum and all working ok up to the actuator, so am now back to the wastegate actuator again. We know it works its just the the car can't make it work!:bang: There's definitely vacuum to it and it opens when manually operated but it just won't open with the car running! Am hoping to test the wiring at the weekend but still trying to get a colour key for the diagram.
As always any additional thoughts or ideas are very gratefully received

 

[multiplied]

hi millymoon,
just to keep you updated...
i fitted new discs/pads to car last weekend and went over the engine area top & underneath looking for anything remotely out of place, i actualy pushed on tight a larger black hose that one of the smaller vac tube goes to....was hoping this may have been the culprit, so cancelled the engine light & taking it to garage this afternoon, car felt good.. until trying to go over the 3000 revs... the light came on again.
so its definately somthing that only occurs at 3000 plus revs, up to that point the car runs perfect and turbo definately kicks in, so im hoping its something minor.... could it even be fuel related?, or egr related?, i know it sounds daft, but all obvious things have been done so far.
car is having its springs & mot done tomorrow & they are going to try & cure the fault.....il be amazed if they do though... mark

 

[millymoon]

Hi Mark, good luck tomorrow, will be keeping my fingers crossed for you. You must keep me updated as I'm convinced the solution is going to be something really minor! My turbo is just not kicking in AT ALL ( I'd completely forgotten that part!) We know it can... it just doesn't There is honestly no part or tube that has not been checked or changed! so taking everything else out of the equation I'm again left with ECU and wiring :bang: With Justin's advice re: the wiring diagram it's certainly worth a shot but I'm not holding my breath!

Hope all goes well tomorrow...

 

[multiplied]

hi,
just rang garage, they are having a nightmare with the springs, had to borrow bigger spring compressors off another garage.
as for the fault, the guy said he will do his very best to find out what it is tomorrow, said he will do some tests inc a vac test.
he said the only other time he heard of a similar problem was on a renault & it was the variable vanes in the turbo coked up & that after cleaning the car was perfect. if it could be that, there is a chemical to spray in that cleans the vanes if i remember correctly.
whatch this space!
ps. was your turbo second hand?, just a thought, but my guess is still that we have exactly same problem...& more importantly answer!

 

[millymoon]

Hi, thanks for the update. Variable vanes is a new one on me Where are they located..? I really hope it is a simple fix like you suggest! (fingers crossed yet again..) Yes my turbo is second hand. Please don't tell me this is the cause.... I've had 3 seperate mechanics telling me the turbo is spot on! But in fairness they've also said a lot of other stuff that wasn't true! Am pinning my hopes on your guys locating the problem. Good luck for tomorrow

 

[multiplied]

hi,
well here goes results of car being in garage.....
its got 12 months mot & new springs...but... fault still there.
the mechanic said they done some tests & turbo seems fine & actuator
moves, but... he is fairly certain it is the variable vains in the turbo not moving free enough, he rang a turbo diesel specialist who he says is "mustard" on all turbo diesels and is where they send stuff that is beyond them & he always fixes it.
he says this guy said straight away it will be the variable vanes in turbo.
as he explained it to me....

with the fault cancelled the car runs perfect up to 3000 revs, lots of pull & works as you would expect, then as it hits 3000 revs the ecu is not receiving the boost it expects...so puts a management light on & the car into limp mode.
It kinda makes sense.
he says if it was his car the very first thing he would do is remove the turbo and clean the vanes with carb cleaner, he went on to say that the fiat engine is actualy a very good engine, but the variable vanes sticking on the turbo is a common fault on turbos that have them & that once cleaned the problem doesnt usualy ever happen again.

now without a haynes for the car, what i need now is a detailed account of how to remove and clean the turbo vanes.

does your car have EXACTLY the same symptons?, does it rev above 3000 revs while stationary with fault first cancelled?. does it drive great with plenty of pull up to the 3000 revs?, then go into limp mode?.

if so, my guess is you have same problem & if so its a case of good few hours removing and cleaning turbo, but money wise just the price of a can of carb cleaner from halfords.

there is the innotech turbo cleaner, i mentioned it to the mechanic, he said worth a shot, but in practice he said with turbo out of car and opened it takes some real good cleaning with carb cleaner to free the vanes...so it may be the only way.
let me know if your symptons as above match mine entirely

 

[millymoon]

Hi, at least it seems there's an alternative to the more expensive wiring and ECU problem I've been anticipating! It certainly sounds like my car has the same symptoms. Once code cleared, it revs to 3000, then the computer beeps and the car goes into limp mode. However, we have found that by manually pushing the wastegate down, the car will rev higher, but the turbo won't kick in. I bought a second hand turbo and the mechanic who fitted it was wary of it being second hand but said the one I'd bought was actually spot on and looked virtually unused. Obviously I know nothing of turbos so I took him on his word. Two other mechanics who have also looked at the car have also said the turbo was sound, as this was the first thing I thought of when the turbo wasn't kicking in properly I'm really reluctant to pay again to have the turbo removed, cleaned and replaced My boyfriend is helpful at the electrics but not the mechanics... Pockets are empty! Please keep me updated. If this resolves your problem then I'll have no option but to go down the same route. In the meantime I might just invest in the spray... The problem is finding the time and the money to keep on spending Really pleased it looks like you're finally getting somewhere...

 

[jwmultipla]

Hi millymoon,

been following this thread, what multiplied is saying about the turbo does sound credible. rather than take off your turbo to see if this is the problem what about looking at the original turbo (assuming it had the same symptom and didn't blow up). If this is a common problem then your original turbo may be able to be fixed or at least investigated at no expense, rather than pull your new turbo off and strip it. also if you damage the new turbo whilst stripping you will be into more money. At least with the old one you have nothing to loose.
These sort of problems are always difficult to diagnose and you really need someone with a full understanding on how the system works, unfortunately some dealers do not have this kind of expertise and they plug their machine in and change what the computer says is wrong. With engine management systems usually something will fail (ie turbo) and as a result another component will not get the correct signal (ie boost sensor)be it pressure or voltage or whatever and it is this component that will show on the diagnostics as being 'faulty' and this is what most people will change (usually a boost sensor for example) in your case the boost sensor is not getting the boost pressure it is expecting in relation to other things that are happening in the engine ie air flow rate/temp engine speed and position of the accelerator pedal. A diagnostic code is just a guide it is not set in stone that this is what is wrong. You need to look at what is happening in the engine management by reading figures 'live' when the fault occurs. too many people plug in a code reader and change what it says has logged a fault.
hope this makes sense!

justin

 

[millymoon]

Hi Justin, unfortunately the old turbo is long gone.. What you're saying makes complete sense as all the mechanics I have used so far have been completely reliant on diagnosing the fault by code. 'Boost pressure sensor' is the one that keeps recurring but everything that can be changed has been changed. Do you have any thoughts or ideas about other ways around this issue or am I simply left with the expensive options of electrics, ecu and cleaning the turbo vanes. I've always felt the fault should be mechanical rather than electrical but it really is a nightmare to diagnose, particularly when you have no funds!... Am still awaiting a response re: colour key for the diagram, but will try to spend some time with a volt meter this weekend. Many thanks for your help it is really appreciated

 

[multiplied]

Hi,
this looks like a very probable solution for under £41 delivered by
courier.
i searched loads of forums, sticking vanes on variable vane turbos is
extremely common after all, the symptoms are EXACTLY same as we both have- ultimately limp mode once ecu doesnt get fed the boost pressure its calling for, as the sticking vanes give reduced (or too much)
boost pressure.
this innotech turbo clean stuff seems to actualy work in the vast
majority of cases...& turbo doesnt even have to come off the car.
here is a guide/comments i have copied from other forums:
1. Remove engine undershield. (if fitted)
2. Unbolt exhaust from turbo (3 bolts) - don't lose the gasket unless you have a new one to replace it with.
3. The kit comes with a piece of card. Cut this out appropriately to the size of the exhaust inlet on the turbo. The card is used as a seal to stop the turbo cleaning solution from coming out. That means you can leave it in there to soak for a good long time (the kit recommends about 1 hour overall)
4. Using the tube provided in the kit, fill the turbo with the turbo cleaning solution, ensuring the card cut out is bolted in place using.
5. Leave it in to soak, then after 20 minutes or so move the actuator to help loosen up the crud on the vanes.
6. Give it another 40 - 50 minutes or so, then unbolt the card and catch all the solution in a suitable tray.
7. Next repeat steps 4-5, but this time use the "turbo clean 2" solution provided in the kit. (This is supposed to put some sort of protective layer on the vanes to help them resist carbon build up)
8. Empty out the remaining solution and put the turbo back together.

Also provided in the kit is a bottle of very strong fuel system/injector cleaner. This is to be put directly into the fuel filter. Remove the filter and empty out the diesel, then fill it with the injector cleaner. Put back together and fire her up! Give it a good 3 - 4 mile drive and that's it!
Glad you took my advice and you got the turbo spooling up how it should.
A mechanic that does this says:
I think I have saved 35+ Tdi owners over a £1000 each, after they had been quoted from main dealers to have there limp mode or under spooling turbo replaced. I would say the Innotec system has cured 35 out of 40 turbos I have used it on over the last 12 months. One turbo which it did not work on was a Ford Tdi 150pd, it still kept limping, so we striped the turbine down and cleaned the vnt direct with innotec and the car is running a treat 6 months on with over 180k on the clock.
The best way to use the cleaning kit is spend a lot of time working it into the turbo, spraying small amounts in at a time then work the VNT backward and forwards over a period of around 90mins

so there you go!!
i really do think this is the solution.
will order mine monday direct from innotech.

points to remember in using kit are: (stuff that sank in my head after reading tons of different stuff)

get car on ramps, the night before doing the job and spray loads of wd40
onto the exhaust bolts that hold exhaust to turbo & leave to soak in overnight.

next day remove bolts and seperate exhaust from turbo.
using the gasket that was between turbo & exhaust, make an exact template of the gasket shape out of 5mm ply or mdf (not cutting out centre hole)
use card template & one made out of ply/mdf onto studs on turbo where exhaust was & boly on nice & tight (if not tight seal the clean fluid will spill out) . through small hole in wood & card gasket (pre drilled) , insert can 1 tube into turbo- spray in small ammounts and move actuator rod up & down for up to 90 mins (use all can & work actuator lots),
after 90 mins remove gasket & catch all gunk coming out in a bowl.
replace gasket & spray in half of can number 2, then remove gasket & spray in remainder of can.
now replace original gasket & refit exhaust to turbo.
now remove fuel filter, empty out fuel and add the bottle of cleaner number 3 into filter and put back together.

take car off ramps & start up & go for a good run.
lots reccomend "italian tune( take car up to 4000 revs in 3rd gear to blast out any crudge a few times throughout journey.
effect should be immediate without limp mode & turbo responsiveness should actualy increase over following few weeks.

im optimistic

 

[jwmultipla]

Hi millymoon,

Would try the above! looks promising and after all the 'turbo specialist' has probably seen this a hundred times as most people will have done what you have done first and then consulted the specialist.

justin

 

[millymoon]

Wow! thanks so much for this. Definitely worth a try and on budget! Not too keen to get under the car in this freezing weather but needs must! Really am grateful for the advice you have both given. Will order the kit you recommend and see it how it goes... All fingers crossed!!

 

[multiplied]

hi,
ordered my turbo clean (rang them up directly) yesterday, it arrived by courier today £40.86 , absolute impressive service & bargain (saving hundreds) if it does the job.
like you, way too cold (snow here) to do job after work, so im going to tackle it this weekend.
will keep you updated on results

 

[millymoon]

Hi, that's really impressive. I haven't got round to ordering mine yet. Found one on ebay for £51 ish so good to know I can order directly even cheaper. Have found a few other car forums discussing this and one alternative cleaning option used was 'easy off' oven cleaner! Not sure if that can be bought in the UK! Really want to try this at the weekend (hopefully the weather will warm up a little!) so I need to get myself in gear and buy the kit. Good luck - Let me know how you get on

 

[multiplied]

i had quick look under the car to size up the job, must say its not clear where to start as very squeezed around turbo area, you cant even see turrbo, just the actuator at bottom of it.
if anyone has any tips on getting to and seperating the exhaust from turbo (someone must have done this?) , then please write a thread to help.
is there an order of things to remove etc?

 

[jwmultipla]

Depends on which part of turbo you need to access. If you need to get the front pipe off (this will reveal the outlet from the turbo) then there are 3 bolts/nuts holding the front pipe to the turbo. If you car has a lower plastic shield then this will need to come off which if not on a wheel free ramp then can be a bit awkward. On the plus side if it does have the shield then the nuts holding the exhaust to the turbo should be quite clean and should come off reasonably easy. Use plenty od WD40 or similar! Also you might find it easier to remove the front pipe from the first part of the exhaust and get it clear out of the way. Depends on how much room you wil need. I always reuse the gaskets and refit them with good quality silicone sealer on both sides, works every time and have never had a leak. It will withstand the temperatue!

hope this helps
justin

 

[multiplied]

thanks justin.
i need to seperate the exhaust from the turbo. i have no plastic undershield.
is the exhaust part to the front then?, near radiator?
going to tackle the job this weekend ):