Heat Pumps, the great deception?

[timmycm850]

Hi s130.
Not sure if the area we live makes a significant difference or not but I'm in South Buckinghamshire. Also from my experience prices have changed since October 2020 in my double glazing industry by about 26% the wrong way.

Also a gas boiler still burns fossil fuel.

You takes your choice and you pays your money I guess if that's the right way round.

 

[s130]

Lets be clear I'm more than happy and supportive of "green" energy (alternatives / new / otherwise).

My major concern (which has nothing to do with your personal and noble endeavors) is "realism". Not sure of what/how to otherwise explain what I mean.

But I'll give it a try

When wind turbines were first heralded as the solution the real facts were different. In those early days the wind turbines required *HUGE* concrete bases. Concrete requires huge amount of energy to create. The turbines had limited power production and limited life span. Yes it was a step in the right direction but was far from cost neutral, more expensive, less green, etc. than than other electrical energy production. So I'm am not nocking this technology. What I'm knocking is who paid for it. Free energy sold on the backs of expensive solar panels with limited lifespan. Read "return on investment".

Also it was touted that properties with solar panels would sell for higher prices compared to those without them. That never really happened to an extent that would justify the capital investment.

Today things are far better and the likes personal solar energy and to a more limited extent personal wind turbines are breaking the various barriers / hurdles that would otherwise make them non cost neutral over their productive lifespan.

When is comes to heat pumps (just one example and don't get me started on electric cars) we are talking £15K (air) to £30K (ground) plus maintenance which I understand is higher than the typical £70 gas boiler service charge. Also for older and larger properties these heat pump solutions are not practical or recommend. In many cases to get the goverment grants you have to have your property up to a specific energy rating. For some this requires an addition huge expense (I can dig out figures if required).

The technology is there which is what politicians rattle on about. However the reality is for most/many it is not suitable, too expensive, etc. for people to shell out for. This is certainly even more true for old age pensioners who may only have another 10+ years to live on averge.

HOWEVER! I do think we all need to do what we can to minimise our energy usage, sensibly cost balance and reduce eco footprint as best as we can for our personal lifetimes. For me I've seriously looked at all the costs and returns and at this point in time (unless the governemtn steps in big time) I'm far better off at chipping away at energy conservation/insulation (there is a productive limit though) and sacrificing a little temperature comfort in parts of my home.

I guess untill we get unlimited fusion power (at waht expense?) we as a society will be cattle trading energy matters/solutions till the cows come home!

 

[timmycm850]

Good morning.

Its good to hear we seem to be pulling strings in the right direction, some strings have shorter or longer effects, if we are involved in this thread then it does mean we care and are interested in where we are heading.

Interestingly I've been in my home 26 years so it's never had the energy assessment but I seem to have circumvented that limitation.

I shall keep reporting on progress and hope that this will act as a good guide to anyone who may be considering which path they are planning for themselves.

I must admit though one enviromental area I do have difficulty in reducing my impact is farming, I do enjoy a good quality unprocessed meat supply.

Tim

 

[PuntoHowTo]

@timmycm850 do you use gas for anything else like cooking or is this upgrade going to completely remove the need for gas?

also given the big hit the heating will make on your electricity consumption have you the want or capacity to upgrade the size of your solar set up in the future?

 

[timmycm850]

Hi Andy.
Yes we do currently use gas for cooking, so we are looking at converting the stoves cooker to either LPG or calor type supply to remove our standing charge for gas use which should save us £200 a year.

Yes the electric will take a hit, our solar has been generating about 3000kwh units per year and by having a 4.6kwh battery we have managed to use about 2200kwh per year, the remaining 800kwh has gone back into the grid at 4p per unit so about £32. So by having the ASHP running to make heat/ hot water it will utilise the wasted 800 units.

The ASHP tarrif I'm going onto has 6 hours a day of electric at 40% less than normal price( ie 20p) so we will be setting it up to run hot water during those periods, also central heating will be running higher at those times to utilise the cheaper power(off peak periods) so it will either run off our solar or cheap rate for 8 months of the year.

Strangely our gas supplier has over estimated our gas use this winter since we fitted triple glazing by 4000kwh gas units. They think we used 14900 units this last year but we only used 10900 units, so our gas use is lower than average. The ASHP supplier will cap off our gas included in the costs so FOC.

With the efficiency of ASHP at + or- 350% I estimated our gas use 10900 ÷ 3.5= 3100 ish electric units will be needed making cost comparable. But if I can use 800 units from my solar and half the remaining at 40% discounted then that makes my electric equivalent to about 1800 units of electric, then add back in my other electric use of 2200 makes about 4000 units.

Well that's the calculations. Lets see what the real numbers will be as we all know about car economy figures eh.

Tim

 

[vexorg]

Well, penalties for use of gas in the uk will put a spanner in the works, Just what we need in the middle of an energy crisis.

A fairer system would be to ban or heavily penalise replacement boilers, and then subsidise the heat pumps for houses it's suitable on.

A bit like these low emission zones, those who have older cars probably cant afford new cars, everything geared up to favour the rich and not giving a fair solution to the environmental problem.

 

[s130]

So if heatpumps are not suitable for older houses, eg. those with solid walls, or listed where double glazing can't be installed, or .... then we have a serious problem. Solar panels on listest buildings, thatched roofs, .......

Of course electric would be a solution but then we would need to see elctricity for heating being subsidies on the 3:1 or 4:1 output vs input basis that heat pumps produce.

An all electric system could also be somewhat greener in less wasted heat/engery as every room in the house/building could be individually controlled with no central boiler or pump to required to run to poser possibly only one or two rooms.

I would certainly go all electric if eletricity (for heating) cost the same as any other fuel/source used solely for heating. Sadly this has never been the case. Nearest we ever got was with off peak and overnight storage heaters that wasted huge amount of energy due to temperature changes and then people opening all the windows to dump heat during the day.. And were the unit costs the same I suspect many would switch to electric vs boilers and heat pumps and our national grid would not be up to the generation and distribution capacity required.

 

[timmycm850]

I made the choice of where I live. Within which house I choose to live. Within which type of construction I live. It is for me to choose which power supply I choose to use, I can buy my supply from whom I choose. We can all make decisions for ourselves. Its clear from previous post which choices I am making and I will fill in where I can if it all works or whether it doesn't. Some offers come up and whilst the options are open we can choose to take them or not.

Hopefully it may help someone sway one way or annother based upon real events.

I can only advise.

Tim

 

[s130]

I made the choice of where I live. Within which house I choose to live. Within which type of construction I live. It is for me to choose which power supply I choose to use, I can buy my supply from whom I choose. We can all make decisions for ourselves. Its clear from previous post which choices I am making and I will fill in where I can if it all works or whether it doesn't. Some offers come up and whilst the options are open we can choose to take them or not.

Hopefully it may help someone sway one way or annother based upon real events.

I can only advise.

Tim

Tim

I basically agree with you. I'm not knocking anybody's choices. For each and every one of us where we are, what is appropriate, what matches and maps our personal circumstances is soooooo personal.

I was/am trying to balance and critique (at government level) where we go.

Facts!

Heat pumps and solar and .... are great. That said they are not compatible with many properties. Meanwhile the country as a whole are trying to eradicate / reduce or even ban any fossil fuel energy sources. Fine, good intent/objective BUT IT IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE currently.

I can think of 100s or 1000s of more general cases where (especially older people and pensioners) where people will severly suffer because there is not government/industry linked up strategy. Ban gas, ban wood burners, ban candles, etc. That does not solve the fundamental right of every person to safe safety and warmth etc. Can't burn gas. Desperate people will just go ang kill a few cows, politicians, ..... to meet their basic needs.

This is not and arguemtn about coal vs gas vs solar vs geo vs nuclear vs heat pumps, .....

We as a society have a real problem to tackle. Solar, wind, hydro electricty is brilliant but it can not and will not supply the energy we as a society require whilst cities like London, NY, other burn lights all day long. And that is just the tip of the iceberg!.

Meanwhile we erks/punters/.... at the bottom of the chain trying to stay alive etc. are faced with not only trying to keep warm etc. but also possible bans on certain fuel/heat sources. Meanwhile those in power get it all paid for them at tax payer expense.

I looked (some years ago) at running my own CHP (combined heat power) setup. Basically a dedicated engine/generator/heating unit that extracted very high percentage levels of energy from every unit put in. They are very good etc. but more suited to an off grid location.

I think solar, heat pumps, CHP, wind, wave, .... are all excelent and need more investment. What really *isses me off is that governments look at dicatating that X Y or Z (read gas boilers, oil boilers, wood burners, ....) are to be curtailed, banned etc. but they offer no viable and affordable alternatives that address all of us. Might as well ban all human reproduction. Dieing population = dieing resource usage = targets met = extinction. Also solves all the pension and welfare problems and costs!

 

[portland_bill]

... Might as well ban all human reproduction. Dieing population = dieing resource usage = targets met = extinction. Also solves all the pension and welfare problems and costs!

The planet can support a number of people. We are close to, or have exceeded that already. Culling people is not an option, but we do need to reduce the population. But that needs education and a culture change, very long term issues. We have developed medicine that prolongs life, as a few of us on here can testify, (me included, thank you), but there are still cultures creating an excess of new people, as we all used to do because many would not survive. Not an easy fix.

With electric cars, we are tackling the wrong issue. We are trying to find greener ways to sustain the current lifestyle, instead of changing our fundamental lifestyles. Whilst trying to make our lives greener, we are at the same time building many new houses, far away from employment, creating more commuters. We need joined-up thinking. Don't hold your breath.

 

[timmycm850]

I must admit I'm enjoying watching all the different ideas and approaches, as well as the other subjects being dragged in by the slow unstoppable draw of this big black hole. So yes everything CAN and MUST be on the table.

Keep it up.

Tim

 

[vexorg]

I made the choice of where I live. Within which house I choose to live. Within which type of construction I live. It is for me to choose which power supply I choose to use, I can buy my supply from whom I choose. We can all make decisions for ourselves. Its clear from previous post which choices I am making and I will fill in where I can if it all works or whether it doesn't. Some offers come up and whilst the options are open we can choose to take them or not.

I read that (probably incorrectly) with a bit of arrogance on your part. Yes, great for you, but I dont believe 99% of the uk home owners can make that choice, especially right now.

What makes no sense is why we have these artificially inflated energy prices, we have the highest in europe, yet also have huge amounts of renewables, our own gas. The green lobby are part to blame for driving this in my mind, but I cant get around how "Brexit" meant we have control yet are trapped in a worse place. How hard would it be for the government to step in and say "you guys cut your prices or you get your licence revoked"

 

[portland_bill]

How hard would it be for the government to step in and say "you guys cut your prices or you get your licence revoked"

I wonder how many MPs have shares in the utility companies.

 

[portland_bill]

We've just enjoyed a week of grey skies and rain. I guess the solar panels have been less effective in this time, although the pigeons opposite are enjoying nesting under them. They were making a lot of noise yesterday, irritating from across the street, must be hell living under them.

 

[timmycm850]

Hi Bill.

So your not a pigeon fancier then, not even with wild mushrooms.

Tim

 

[timmycm850]

So our solar generation so far this year in kwh
January 44.
February 85.
March 167.

We currently use about 375 kwh a month but this will go up when the ASHP goes in.

Tim

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Bill.

So your not a pigeon fancier then, not even with wild mushrooms.

Tim

Same as pheasant, more meat on a butchers pencil

 

[portland_bill]

Hi Bill.

So your not a pigeon fancier then, not even with wild mushrooms.

Tim

Never eaten pigeon. Not climbing onto the roof across the road to catch one either. But, if the cat brings one in, we might share.

 

[timmycm850]

Don't get too exited waiting as you may be disappointed.

 

[s130]

On a more serious point I was advised / educated / ... some time ago when looking at solar panels (neighbours experience) to ensure that your quotation and installation included anti bird / pigeon / other creatures that would likely set up home in their new sheltered roof top des res.

Post installation bird/other pest defences can be costly requiring scoffolding etc. etc. Until pointed out to me I possibly would never have considered the potential problem. I gather though it is/can be a real problem and expense if your house/installation is targetted. As with all birds / similar they and their offspring return to the same location year after year so once they have settled in then they are there to stay.