Technical Fiat Panda Hybrid Battrey

[Michelle Abela]

Hello
I bought a brand new Panda last year 2022 and I have a problem with the hybrid battery. Sometimes it does not charge. Took it one time already at the Fiat garage but the could not find any problem they said.
Today I took it in again as it was doing it again and the gave me another appointment for next month. They told me they searched in its data logs but didn't find any fault. Has anybody encountered any similar problem?
Don't know if it might have something to do with it but I used the car today after 1 week not using it as I have been abroad, could this have to do something with the battrey not charging?
I know it shouldn't but just in case someone had the same thing.

 

[Goudrons]

There does seem to be a few owners complaining about the same thing.

It appears to be related to the cars normal, 12 volt battery under the bonnet being too low or the voltage sensor on that 12 volt battery reports it's too low.

Because of this, the cars electronics seem to prioritise the recharging on the normal 12 volt battery before it tries to charge the mild hybrid battery as that's what gets everything going in the morning.

Some owners have managed to get their dealer to change the 12 volt battery and/or voltage sensor under warranty and it's all started working again.

I suspect it's probably a software glitch though, the setting in the software for this particular function are probably set a little too high so the cars computer will shut off the Hybrid battery recharge a little too soon to keep the 12 volt battery fully topped up.

Pre hybrid models had the same sort of sensor on the 12 volt battery for the stop start system, it protected the battery from repeated stop starts if it was reporting too low.
That tended to disable the stop start a little too keenly once the battery was getting on a bit or the car was short tripped too often. I guess it's doing the same with the hybrid recharge.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

The answer is probably in the question- it’s not been used for a week. Mild Hybrid cars (and those with stop/start too) need to be used to keep things charged up. How many miles does it typically do in a month? Lots of short runs? All in town?

 

[The Pretender]

The Main Battery is mostly at fault, for that kind of problems, due to low voltage or it has just degraded to much.
Most electronic FIAT problems, start with main battery not performing at 100% anymore.

 

[timmycm850]

the hybrid regeneration only charges if you slow down above 1500 revs so if your a stick it in to gear as soon as possible dtiver then your never going to get regen. Try driving it making sure you use some revs.
Tim

 

[mpampisGR]

Hello
I bought a brand new Panda last year 2022 and I have a problem with the hybrid battery. Sometimes it does not charge. Took it one time already at the Fiat garage but the could not find any problem they said.
Today I took it in again as it was doing it again and the gave me another appointment for next month. They told me they searched in its data logs but didn't find any fault. Has anybody encountered any similar problem?
Don't know if it might have something to do with it but I used the car today after 1 week not using it as I have been abroad, could this have to do something with the battrey not charging?
I know it shouldn't but just in case someone had the same thing.

Don' t missing your time, all members until now wrote it very well. Just buy a small conventional battery charge "I have bought a CTEK for about 70euros" and problem solved. When next you see the charging light in your dash not function at all during driving, put your charge for a night or more in the poles of the conventional 12v battery and next morning you are ready to go. Otherwise you need to do much much more trips not in traffic to charge it and more often. Have a nice trips!

 

[mpampisGR]

Don' t missing your time, all members until now wrote it very well. Just buy a small conventional battery charge "I have bought a CTEK for about 70euros" and problem solved. When next you see the charging light in your dash not function at all during driving, put your charge for a night or more in the poles of the conventional 12v battery and next morning you are ready to go. Otherwise you need to do much much more trips not in traffic to charge it and more often. Have a nice trips!

 

[AnargyrosB]

There does seem to be a few owners complaining about the same thing.

It appears to be related to the cars normal, 12 volt battery under the bonnet being too low or the voltage sensor on that 12 volt battery reports it's too low.

Because of this, the cars electronics seem to prioritise the recharging on the normal 12 volt battery before it tries to charge the mild hybrid battery as that's what gets everything going in the morning.

Some owners have managed to get their dealer to change the 12 volt battery and/or voltage sensor under warranty and it's all started working again.

I suspect it's probably a software glitch though, the setting in the software for this particular function are probably set a little too high so the cars computer will shut off the Hybrid battery recharge a little too soon to keep the 12 volt battery fully topped up.

Pre hybrid models had the same sort of sensor on the 12 volt battery for the stop start system, it protected the battery from repeated stop starts if it was reporting too low.
That tended to disable the stop start a little too keenly once the battery was getting on a bit or the car was short tripped too often. I guess it's doing the same with the hybrid recharge.

I have the same problem with 2021 MY Fiat Panda Mild Hybrid In Greece (32.000 Km on the clock) .
Initially the problem started occurring every 3rd day and even after long drives the 12 Volt battery in the engine bay reported 14.9 or 13,6 Volts Fully charged definitely more than 12Volts all the time.

Charged the battery from a mains socket and ecoflow using a 6A charger. The battery was 90%Full and at 13.6 Volts it stopped charging and reported Full.

So my guess is that the sensor is to blame

Can anyone offer the part number info for the voltage censor ?

Has anyone tried to bypass - delete the Voltage sensor or make it report Full battery all the time ?

For future reference if anyone ever needs to replace service the Hybrid Battery I am attaching some useful pictures. The battery is air cooled from the cabin no filter no fan just a vent and is also engine coolant cooled and has 2 connections 1 for water and 1 5prongs for electricity. The MOPAR Battery is built by Samsung SDI and you can remove it yourself without high voltage risk (not more risky than the 12 Volt Battery in the engine bay sitting at 14 Volts full). The battery is NCM Nickel Cobalt Manganese

Thank you very much

 

[The Panda Nut]

I have the same problem with 2021 MY Fiat Panda Mild Hybrid In Greece (32.000 Km on the clock) .
Initially the problem started occurring every 3rd day and even after long drives the 12 Volt battery in the engine bay reported 14.9 or 13,6 Volts Fully charged definitely more than 12Volts all the time.

Charged the battery from a mains socket and ecoflow using a 6A charger. The battery was 90%Full and at 13.6 Volts it stopped charging and reported Full.

So my guess is that the sensor is to blame

Can anyone offer the part number info for the voltage censor ?

Has anyone tried to bypass - delete the Voltage sensor or make it report Full battery all the time ?

For future reference if anyone ever needs to replace service the Hybrid Battery I am attaching some useful pictures. The battery is air cooled from the cabin no filter no fan just a vent and is also engine coolant cooled and has 2 connections 1 for water and 1 5prongs for electricity. The MOPAR Battery is built by Samsung SDI and you can remove it yourself without high voltage risk (not more risky than the 12 Volt Battery in the engine bay sitting at 14 Volts full). The battery is NCM Nickel Cobalt Manganese

Thank you very much

Please let us know if you find a solution. Thanks.

 

[AnargyrosB]

I have the same problem with 2021 MY Fiat Panda Mild Hybrid In Greece (32.000 Km on the clock) .
Initially the problem started occurring every 3rd day and even after long drives the 12 Volt battery in the engine bay reported 14.9 or 13,6 Volts Fully charged definitely more than 12Volts all the time.

Charged the battery from a mains socket and ecoflow using a 6A charger. The battery was 90%Full and at 13.6 Volts it stopped charging and reported Full.

So my guess is that the sensor is to blame

Can anyone offer the part number info for the voltage censor ?

Has anyone tried to bypass - delete the Voltage sensor or make it report Full battery all the time ?

For future reference if anyone ever needs to replace service the Hybrid Battery I am attaching some useful pictures. The battery is air cooled from the cabin no filter no fan just a vent and is also engine coolant cooled and has 2 connections 1 for water and 1 5prongs for electricity. The MOPAR Battery is built by Samsung SDI and you can remove it yourself without high voltage risk (not more risky than the 12 Volt Battery in the engine bay sitting at 14 Volts full). The battery is NCM Nickel Cobalt Manganese

Thank you very much

Dear All,
Good Day,

I was able to get to the bottom of the Mild Hybrid system offline situation. The Magnet Marelli ECU the brains of the Panda check for the condition of the 12volt battery every 6-8 hours and it updates the values stored in the ECU.

The original 12 Volt battery under the Bonnet is MOPAR made by EXIDE 12Volt 50 Ah 500A (EN) EFB PN:52111760 L1 EFB Battery. The original battery sells for over 250 EUR from the Dealership in Greece. EXIDE does not offer under its brand any battery that is close to the Capacity AH or the Amperage.
If you need to change the battery you can NOT use BOSH AGM 60AH battery with more Amperage the car will not start as the Magnet Marelli ECU does not allow.
The only after market battery option that works better than the original and goes bad after double the times sitting in the car is a battery from Japanese Maker YUASA. You can use this battery (model name varies but it is the same battery worldwide) that has the same Amperage and the same capacity or it advertises as a little smaller capacity ie 450 AH or 455 or 459 AH. It is exactly the same battery and all of them work and start the car.

The Magnet Marelli ECU will force the hybrid system offline when it detects the battery being below 12,1 Volts. The battery Fully Charged sits at 12,7 Volts and if you connect to the wall socket to charge it or use a 12 Volt Solar Panel with Solar Charge Controller you will see it going up to 13.6-14,3 Volts during charging but when you stop the charging it sits at 12,7-12,8 Volts.
So the controller dectating when the Hybrid System is Online is very very sensitive and once it detects 12 Volt Battery below 12,1 Volt it will set Hybrid System offline for 6-8 Hours. If you change the car clock it will not affect it by the way.

So even if you change with brand new battery even original do not expect the Hybrid system to be online the moment you try to use your car again.

Best solution is to have a small solar panel on the roof with a small charge controller charging the battery always at 100%.. i use a Dokio Solar panel off eBay works fine. Another solution is to connect to wall outlet to trickle charge it with electricity as a slow pace (you can do this overnight once a week). I also tried with success to charge the battery using the ecoflow River 2 as power source.

If you use a 12Volt Adapter to charge your phone and or have connected a tablet or after market GPS radio inside the panda these systems along with the factory alarm drain power. In Greece the factory installed alarm system drains the battery completely after 2 weeks of inactivity say you parked your car at the airport.

So the solution is to use something to trickle charge the battery. A Yuasa battery lasts longer charges faster from the car while running and dicharges more slowly also better during the Winter. So when you change the battery use Yuasa not the dealer supplied MOPAR piece of **** that is over expensive.

If you have a roof rack or a box on top a small 40-100Watt 12 Volt Flexible panel that you can use a heatgun to melt in place and secure on the plastic box on the roof of your Panda is the best worry free solution. The Solar Charge Controller stops charging and starts again automatically having the battery fully charged.
Nissan uses exact same method in Nissan Lead to charge 12 Volt Battery and provide USB power or fridge power when going camping etc
Therefore i believe if you want to keep the original battery for longer and waste less co2 in producing transporting new batteries etc or simply you dont want to pay again.. the best solution is to set up a 12 Volt Flexible Solar Panel + Solar Charger and set it and forget it .

Not having to deal with the problem at all ever again is the best solution than using bandaid solution of charging the battery after it drops and having Hybrid system offline for 6-8 Hours per time when you actually want to use your car and drive away.

By the way the new fiat 500e Hybrid system with 48 Volt system with the same engine 46341162 1.0 FireFly uses exactly the same battery from Exide and has exactly the same problem. Same battery use also in new Grante Panda EV or 48 Volt Hybrid . So leaving this information here for future reference.

Hope to have helped.

 

[dante giacosa]

Hey AnargyrosB.

that sounds highly comprehensive; can I ask what exact model of Panda you have, what the capacity of the solar panel you used is, and how exactly you connected it to the car? Did you go in through the 12v auxiliary charging socket on the dashboard, or wire straight to the cell under the bonnet..?

Thanks

JimP

 

[AnargyrosB]

Hey AnargyrosB.

that sounds highly comprehensive; can I ask what exact model of Panda you have, what the capacity of the solar panel you used is, and how exactly you connected it to the car? Did you go in through the 12v auxiliary charging socket on the dashboard, or wire straight to the cell under the bonnet..?

Thanks

JimP

Just used a Dokio Solar Kit from eBay you can find cheaper on Aliexpress etc.. You connect the solar panel with MC4 Connections to the Solar Charge Controller and the with clips you do directly to the battery. Will attach some pictures

Purchased this to charge my Ecoflow River 2 because I dont need MC4 to XT60 extra adapter cable etc
As a side job charged the Panda Battery 3 times already without the Ecoflow just the Solar Panel the Solar Charge Controller and the clips on the battery + & -.

There are better solutions with Flexible solar Panels that they use in Yachts that take the form of the the place you place them and can glue them down or melt the surrounding plastic in place and no wind will take it. This is briefcase portable soltuion it is firm and designed to stay in place fixed firm.

I just throw this on the roof of the car and rout the cable to the front bonnet and place the charge controller somewhere in the engine bay and close everything lock it down and let do its job . It is not the most elegant solution but assuming you fix a flexible solar panel on the roof or roof rack or plastic box you can rout the cable from inside the car close to the clatch pedals or through the Airconditioning area there are plastic ducks that you push them and push the cable throught.
Off course a more permanent fixed solution at place- a place it fix it and forget it solution - will require more cable lenght and to have the panels glues or secured in place.

You can image Sail Boats with huge Sail Canvas full of Flexible Solar Panels and also placed on deck both for shade with permanent metal supporting structure also also over free surfaces. The flexible solar panels are ligh in weight and if you secured them properly even in the 9 bofors gusts of wind in the Aegean Sea they will not unglue and fly aroung.. For a car driving down a highway doing 130 Km/hour you can also use a fixed ie boxed with aluminium and glass sandwitched solar panel on a roofrack secured with screwa bolts between the beams of the car. This solutions adds weight though and you will notice during strong cross wind. But if you have offroad led bars & overlanding lights for example installed on your panda this is a natural addition to your equipment.

 

[dante giacosa]

Hey AnargyrosB

thankyou for going into detail over this.

I'm not sure what you mean by the XT60 connectors- is that an adaptor lead you'd need for your Ecoflow River 2 unit?

And when you say Panda battery; do you mean the hybrid system battery itself, not the vehicle main-cell..?

 

[AnargyrosB]

Hey AnargyrosB

thankyou for going into detail over this.

I'm not sure what you mean by the XT60 connectors- is that an adaptor lead you'd need for your Ecoflow River 2 unit?

And when you say Panda battery; do you mean the hybrid system battery itself, not the vehicle main-cell..?

The ecoflow uses as input port for power from a 12Volt Car Outlet or from Solar Panels the XT60 Standard Connector. There is an XT60 to MC4 standard adapter that ecoflow sells. This Dokio does not need the adapter from XT60 to MC4 as it is from factory ready to use on Ecoflow and is marketed as such.

The Panda 12 Volt normal battery in the front of the car under the boot Yes NOT the mild Hybrid one.

Focus here. This module in connected on the negative pole of the 12Volt battery. It is made from MOPAR not FIAT and is made in ROMANIA not Italy.
This module C861 does 3 things.
1. It is a Voltage Regulator Balancer (protection)
2. It is the "sender" unit ie it reports to the OBD port the battery Level of the 12 Volt Battery. If it reports 50% or less and specifically 48,6% then this Unit will do set the Stop Start, Mild Hybrid battery Charging, Regenerative Braking Offline.
3. It protects the battery and car electronics when jump starting this Car or another car. When giving Power to the Panda DO NOT connect to the negative Pole but on another metal not painted part

I Changed my 12 Volt battery because it had lost 47% of its capacity (Ampere Hours).
When you do this you need an official OBD Reader from a dealership (same with Jeep the "american brand") to declare to the Magnet Marelli this battery as "New"

For example the Factory Installed battery is MOPAR made by Exide EFB Model L1 PN:52111760 12Volt 50 AH 500A(EN standard) this has 500A CCA cranking power

This battery costs 180 EURO new and it will last maximum 3 Years. It has actually been discontinued by Exide and there is a new model

The new Model L2 is Exide EFB 55AH 550 540A (EN Standard) this is the same battery but an enhanced model ie it is same dimensions but 5AH more
It has a higher cranking power of 540 A than 500A previously. It uses some king of Fossil Carbon Boost Tech to protect itself from degradation (could be marketing it is definitely a little less in weight)

So you go out you buy a brand new battery and then you need an official Fiat, FCA OBD and a laptop to declare the battery as new

(new model costs around 110 euro new with VAT 24% in Greece - including the 30 euro discount for giving your old battery at the point of sale for recycling)

If the Sender Unit is defective you need to replace it.

There could be a conflict between what actually is being reported by the Sender Unit + what the actual status of the battery is.

Let me explain.
If you get your hands on a multimeter or Volt meter you can connect to the battery and measure for example
If you measure like I did with the new battery 12,8 Volts then the Battery is 100% charged BUT
the sender unit could be reporting to the ECU that the battery is 48% or 50% charged when it is 100% charged.

You measure after closing the doors + boot and arming the alarm or locking the car - after 5 minutes not before 5 minutes.

When the the battery is connected to the car and car is Idling you could measure 13.8 or even 14 Volts. This is because the "alternator" is working and giving extra Voltage to keep the 12Volt main battery on the front under the trunk fully charged.

(there is NO alternator on the Mild Hybrid panda but the BSG system ie a belt start stop electric motor that through the belt assists the ICE motor during acceleration leading to a reduction of CO2 and particulate matter ppm)

The problems start when the Sender Unit .. reports 48,6% 12Volt battery.

Then the car goes into lets say "Safe Mode" ie the BSG system goes offline
There is NO regen braking, no assisting the ICE motor in acceleration, no Mild Hybrid Battery Charging
Instead ALL the Voltage is directed to "Charge" the 12 Volt EFB battery on the front.

The system stays offline until the next time you STOP, Lock the car and start the car the next day (ie 8 or more hours hybernating)
So even if the battery is Fully Charged the "sender unit" will not allow the Systems to go Online and work as normal.

This Sender Unit is damaged by temperature, when jump starting the car...

You can Charge the 12Volt regular battery while the Car is connected to the battery by using a charged like I did from a mains socket or an ecoflow or other powerstation - powerbank.
Here you must pay attention.
If the "sender Unit" remembers that the from the Last Running Cycle the 12 Volt Regular battery was sitting at 50% empty ..
Then when you have charged the battery as described the car will continue to report 50% charged battery even thought it could be 100% charged.

To get around this issue do NEVER connect to the negative Pole on the 12Volt Regular battery to charge it While the positive + negative pole are connected to the Vehicle.
You either disconnect the Volt Battery from the vehicle and then connect to the negative pole or you connect the negative cable to some other NOT painted body part (not the engine)

It is my opinion that all Problems regarding Stop Start for the Mild Hybrid Fiat Panda 2021-2027 models start & end with the Sender Unit pictured below.
Without this the car will not work and you can only find order this car from any FCA dealerhip (does not have to be Fiat) as it is used in multiple cars.

After discussions with Service Gurus in Greece and trained stuff ex Fiat there were problems with the Fiat 500, Fiat Panda 2013-2014, Fiat Tipo and the Ducato and Doblo with this Sender Unit.

I higly recommend to all Owners to get your hands on 3-4 of the Sender Units and keep in Storage for Future use.
This is module Mopar C861 | 53F 0199 300 147 | 52181203 | HW:04.00 | SW: 03.10

My unit was produced in November 2021.
Apparently the 2024 versions of these are a little bit longer - larger maybe accomodating an updated design

Hope to have helped other understand the plilosphy of how the Vehicle works and does the reporting.
If there was no such sensor there would be no such problem..
The EFB Battery is perfectly capable to Start and Stop the engine even at 35% charge level or even at 40% AH capacity...
They did not have to do this ie set the Stop Start System offline.
They have the Mild Hybrid Battery Start & Stop the car and not EFB Battery which is okay but both batteries could be working together and charging each other if necessary ..

The sender Unit will not allow the Vehicle to work with a NON Start Stop EFB battery.

Other makers WINNER & Yuasa also work so you dont have to go with EXCIDE if you don't want to.

There is no Chip reporting as a MOPAR "genuine" factory or Fiat battery.. the Stupid Module ONLY measures Voltage & Amper and runs diagnostics and keeps stats... but does not do this LIVE but on a periodic cycle ie keeps the values for 8-15 hours.

It is possible to disconnect the Battery and keep it disconected for 1 Hour. You will Loose Time & Date.
The Radio or Diplay Unit has a small swatch like Battery to keep its settings radio stations saved.. however this will NOT last forever
If there is no battery connected to the car for extended period of time you can lose the Radio

ie the Radio-Display Unit is locked and requires Unlocking Code. The unlocking code is 2126 up to 2130 for model Year 2021 City Life model . For Fiat Panda Cross is 2136-2150 range.
My code is 2126 and was included in a card stapled to one of the manuals. This is not from Factory but from Dealership.

If you lose this Code it can be retrieved from FIAT Dealership at a cost of 80 EURO in Greece. In your region pricing could vary.

Full battery 100%	12,6-12,7 Volt (12,8-13 Volt not connected to the car)
90%	12.5 Volt. A good battery could report 12.6
80%	12.42 Volt
70%	12.32 Volt
60%	12.2 Volt Needs Charging.
50%	12.06 Volt
40%	11.9 Volt
30%	11.75 Volt
20%	11.58 Volt
10%	11.31 Volt
0%	10.5 Volt (Catastrophic Conditions) . 10 Volt 1 element short circuit 8 Volt 2 element short circuit 0 Volt a dead battery with a cut element

 

[AnargyrosB]

Dear All,
Good Day,

When you dig dipper you find more information.
So I update this topic with new information for the benefit of everyone.

IF your symptoms are the Following: Switch on the Car, the car works perfectly and after 10-15-20 minutes of driving you LOOSE all blocks showing battery charge level in the instrument panel (Mild Hybrid Battery)

AND you have no regen braking, no battery charging, no start-stop etc. You have no engine light or battery light indication no nothing at the instrument panel

If you lock the car and leave it for 2-4 hours or overnight the next day everything works perfectly for about 15-20 minutes.

THEN if you plug in to original from maker Fiat OBD Scanner or after market multiecuscan you will get the infamous
P1093-02 Dual Battery Switch Module (DBSM)

I am attaching here a link with more information
https://www.notiziariomotoristico.c...so-del-modulo-batteria-per-il-mild-hybrid-fca (Notice)

Troubleshoot guide for this Error is this :

As you see the DBSM Module is located about opposite of the battery at the passenger side inside the boot behind the Water Bottle.
The function of this module is to receive 2 wires with 12 Volts each. The module checks which battery has less charge and charged this Battery.

WHEN this module fails you will soon be left without power because after the 10-15-20 minutes of normal working condition the module stops charging both batteries.

How to check this DBSM Module a How to and more information to help you understand truly how the Mild Hybrid System works

Original Article in Italian translated to Engish with Chat GDP 2.0 (older version - not excellent translation)

IF the DBSM Fails you are on the RED Zone here

In this picture R061 is the DBSM Dual Battery Switch Module
K289 is the brake pedal position sensor
K105 is the Brake Servo Vacuum
M192 is the Voltage Stabilizer (pictured in previous post above) and is connected to the negative pole of the 12 Volt Pb Battery.

These sensors have to be checked measured by a automotive electrician that are working within parameters and spec before reaching the conclusion that the DBSM is at fault.
However in most cases expect to find it at fault.
The Mild Hybrid Battery under the drivers seat can also fail.

Replacement Parts for the infamous DBSM : 52181596 or equivalent 52216842<- this is better

Hope to have helped the Community and other users maybe 2 days away driving distance from a dealership find a solution and fix your car with your local service providers & technicians.

 

[AnargyrosB]

When you want to charge the battery of your Panda make sure you DISCONNECT the battery from the car, the negative pole -
Maybe disconnect also positive + just to be sure.

Do NOT Connect to the car directly

Here you can see a depiction of what NOT to do

 

[Frenchy313]

Hi everyone, I had the DBSM in my 500 replaced under warranty yesterday. It was a 2.5-month wait for the part! I've been having frequent issues with the hybrid system shutting off, so I've noticed a few changes in how the car manages energy since the replacement.

The regenerative braking is a bit less aggressive now, and the car feels smoother when I lift off the accelerator. The battery takes a bit longer to charge, but it holds its charge for longer too. I've also noticed a big improvement with cruise control, especially on downhill slopes. Before, the car would often speed up on its own, but now it maintains a steady speed and even charges the battery. That's something it couldn't do before.

PS: I've translated french to english thanks to gemini. It works fine, isn't it?