General Fiat 500 vs the Competition

[pearce_jj]

@Chrisilda - based on my experience, it is much easier to get MPG approaching book with the multijet than the twin air, so I'd be inclined to agree with you.

@RobinPJ - thanks, valid comments certainly:

1) On fuel consumption, you implicitly criticise the TA...

Yes, as the overall fuel bill for 36,000 miles (say) would from my testing be £800 more than might have been predicted, whereas with VAGs TSi it is likely to be £200 more (at todays prices). And the multijet should be roughly as predicted.

2) Regarding "roughness"...

The car I drove had a lot of vibration and drone. It was very noticable, and could be felt in the steering wheel a lot more than the multijet.

3) In your costings you choose to ignore the cost of insurance "because it is such a variable"....

OK this is a good point. Prices from DirectLine offer some surprises:

• Fiat 500 Twin Air - £307 for both manual and dual-logic
• Fabia SE 85bhp - £282, £321 for the 105 bhp DSG version
• Audi A1 85bhp - £261, £321 for the 122 bhp Sport Tronic (DSG) version

My numbers were kind to the 500, since it was based on 68 mpg. If my test result of 20% less on that and 5% less on the VAG cars are representative for me, then 3-year 36k costs become:

• 500 Twin-Air - £14,000/£14,330 with dual-logic
• Fabia - SE £11,365/£12,018 with DSG, £14,740 for vRS
• Audi A1 - £13,390, Sport with DSG £15,835

This includes interest based on the prevaling deals available, without that the 500 and A1 SE would be £750 cheaper and the A1 Sport £1,200 cheaper.

What all this shows, I think, is that the A1 SE is very well priced (if you can get one) but the twin air just seems to me to be expensive, especially when driven back-to-back with the VAG motors.

As for being set out to discredit the twin-air - make your own decision on that. Have a look through the guides section to see how much energy I've put into owning my 500 though

 

[pearce_jj]

surely it would be more financially and environmentally responsible to keep the MJ on the road and well serviced until such time as the cost of any repairs exceed the economic gain of doing so?

This was the starting point. Assuming nothing goes wrong then it would be cheaper to keep the MJ, but actually not by as much as might be suspected. In the region of £25-40pm in real terms, by my calculations, depending on which car we're looking at.

 

[306maxi]

I'll admit firstly that I don't venture into this section very often but I have to query some logic here.

You want a new car purely because it's out of warranty? Surely if you've had 3 years of essentially trouble free motoring with no major component failure you've no reason to suspect that this will happen anytime soon, so surely it would be more financially and environmentally responsible to keep the MJ on the road and well serviced until such time as the cost of any repairs exceed the economic gain of doing so?

Completely agree. That's what we'll be doing with our 500

 

[RobinPJ]

Yes the Up does look promising. The vRS is interesting - by my calculations to do 40k over 3 years the 180bhp vRS would cost about £375pm (excluding insurance, since it's such a variable), whilst a twin-air-plus dual-logic would be about £365pm.

3) In your costings you choose to ignore the cost of insurance "because it is such a variable"....

OK this is a good point. Prices from DirectLine offer some surprises:

• Fiat 500 Twin Air - £307 for both manual and dual-logic
• Fabia SE 85bhp - £282, £321 for the 105 bhp DSG version
• Audi A1 85bhp - £261, £321 for the 122 bhp Sport Tronic (DSG) version

My numbers were kind to the 500, since it was based on 68 mpg. If my test result of 20% less on that and 5% less on the VAG cars are representative for me, then 3-year 36k costs become:

• 500 Twin-Air - £14,000/£14,330 with dual-logic
• Fabia - SE £11,365/£12,018 with DSG, £14,740 for vRS
• Audi A1 - £13,390, Sport with DSG £15,835

This includes interest based on the prevaling deals available, without that the 500 and A1 SE would be £750 cheaper and the A1 Sport £1,200 cheaper.

What all this shows, I think, is that the A1 SE is very well priced (if you can get one) but the twin air just seems to me to be expensive, especially when driven back-to-back with the VAG motors.

As for being set out to discredit the twin-air - make your own decision on that. Have a look through the guides section to see how much energy I've put into owning my 500 though

? What was the insurance quote for the vRS?

 

[pearce_jj]

? What was the insurance quote for the vRS?

£448, making the vRS £11pm more than the twin air dual logic and £20pm more than the manual overall.

 

[grimwau]

i'll admit firstly that i don't venture into this section very often but i have to query some logic here.

Spock's just the man for logic queries though.

 

[smart examiner]

Yes the Up does look promising. The vRS is interesting - by my calculations to do 40k over 3 years the 180bhp vRS would cost about £375pm (excluding insurance, since it's such a variable), whilst a twin-air-plus dual-logic would be about £365pm.

Skoda will also bring out their take on the UP which should cost a bit less.
Then there is the New Panda which also looks interesting.

 

[wigit]

interesting thread, in reality i wouldn't touch the 1.4tsi unit in any VAG car, way to many failures and problems out there for my liking

whilst the TA gets flack about mpg the 1.4tsi gets nowhere near the figures and is not much better than the 2.0tsi which is a real cracker of a motor in comparison, at least they put it in a decent chassis in the scirocco

i looked at skoda labia's (as i call them) when i went for the 500, trip to the options list soon racks up the price and the vRS is grossly over rated tepid hatch, have warmed to the A1 and in reality a tdi does appeal but again Audi tax on the options

what the labia can never achieve is that it is a classless car as apposed to a car that has no class, you are at home in pulling up at Aldi or outside a 5 star hotel, Golf GTI has always done this (hence why one sits on drive) and the 500 as they are both icons

500s aren't the best value car out there but for me that's not the point

 

[pearce_jj]

interesting thread, in reality i wouldn't touch the 1.4tsi unit in any VAG car

The thread was mostly about the simpler 1.2tsi, but digressed onto the twin charger when the vRS was raised.

Interesting to hear another perspective though.

Personally I'd say there's more chance of trouble bills once out of warantee with the TDi units, variable vane turbo, dpf's and egr's are all known problem areas. Which coming back to the start, is precisely why I don't want the risk of holding on to the multijet.

 

[jrkitching]

Personally I'd say there's more chance of trouble bills once out of warantee with the TDi units, variable vane turbo, dpf's and egr's are all known problem areas. Which coming back to the start, is precisely why I don't want the risk of holding on to the multijet.

Sadly I have to agree - if you're planning on keeping a 500 beyond warranty, the 1.2 petrol is surely the engine of choice. Driven carefully & properly maintained, I'd expect to see 200k miles before I'd need to spend money on the engine.

The 1.2 Panda in basic form can be had for under £6k cash just now, and with near 60mpg possible, if you keep one for life & service it yourself, total costs of well under 20p/mile should be achievable - and that includes insurance.

 

[arorat]

You missed the FUN bit from the TA, its a fine car albeit true to the original twin and a bit revvy although the ECO mode is fantastic for lazy town driving. Not sure you would get the same fun from Skoda or Audi.

Personally if i was comparing against Audi/Skoda, I would just get a 1 year old 320d, Prob (!?!) better mileage than a TA and as much fun to drive being tight

 

[pearce_jj]

You missed the FUN bit from the TA...not sure you would get the same fun from Skoda or Audi.

Yes that's true, then again with twice the bhp the 320d and Fabia VRS should deliver there too.

 

[TrevC]

I nipped out for fuel for the TA this lunchtime and walked past an A1 on the way to my car, so I had a nose through the window. Looks very classy, and I'm impressed that they start at only about £1000 more than my TA Lounge would cost now. The boot looks bigger, though according to Honest John the 500 has more passenger space. This one had "Nil" written on the tax disk payment, so it was presumably a low CO2 model - diesel?
I got in the 500 to go to the garage, and basked in the sun streaming through my glass roof, and looked around at my red and ivory interior and swathe of white dash. I then revelled in the sound and shove from the little turbo lump, and decided that I wouldn't swap.
Its great that there are now several distinctive small cars to cater for different tastes and brand preferences - Mini, 500, DS3, A1. I wouldn't actually group the Skoda with these - not because there's anything wrong with it, but it's a run of the mill small hatch.

 

[jrkitching]

...Its great that there are now several distinctive small cars to cater for different tastes and brand preferences...

Agreed. When I ordered my 500, I particularly wanted a sub-120g/km petrol car (for the fiscal advantage), and at that time, only a few manufacturers actually had anything to offer at all. By the time I come to replace it, I'm betting every major car company will have something in that segment.

Whether they'll be capable of living up to their ecoPromise in real world driving is another matter entirely, however.

 

[pearce_jj]

There's every chance I'd say - but the charge for the environmental credentials can be too steep.

I found an interesting paper on VW's TSi engine, interesting in that it gives away indirectly some efficiency numbers, stating that 19MWh are needed to drive a 6-speed Golf 150,000 km. Work that back (with the 1.2TSi Golf being 134g/km and 5.7l/100km, and petrol having energy density of 34.8MJ/l) then the average efficiency of the 1.2 TSi over it's useful life is just 23%.

Work that back the other way then the ultimate CO2 rating for a petrol powered Golf would be about 31g/km.

Anyway my point is that there is probably a lot more to come, in efficiency terms. I seem to remember reading years ago that Skandia's big truck diesels were running at about 45% efficiency? I guess the operational mode is very different, producing lots of BHP all the time. But anyway, I digress...

 

[ahmett]

For me what set the Fiat apart was the fact that it had so many extras. The Audi A1 may start at a similar price (a bit higher in greece), but all they give you is a steering wheel. My fiat had pretty much everything I needed, and even the extra things didnt cost much. Tell me if you can get red leather seats for 700 or whatever pounds Mr. Audi! + Audi spare parts and servicing are much much more. Lets face it, Audi is not cheap motoring and if you are loaded you probably wouldnt buy an Audi A1 anyway.

I like the Mini but its (full extra) a good 15,000 euros more expensive than the Fiat in Greece!

 

[Chrisilda]

For me what set the Fiat apart was the fact that it had so many extras. The Audi A1 may start at a similar price (a bit higher in greece), but all they give you is a steering wheel. My fiat had pretty much everything I needed, and even the extra things didnt cost much. Tell me if you can get red leather seats for 700 or whatever pounds Mr. Audi! + Audi spare parts and servicing are much much more. Lets face it, Audi is not cheap motoring and if you are loaded you probably wouldnt buy an Audi A1 anyway.

I like the Mini but its (full extra) a good 15,000 euros more expensive than the Fiat in Greece!

VW group's car are really expensive in terms of EVERYTHING! Fiat 500 is a value for money car! I totally agree with you Ahmett, low priced extras and short delivery time is an incentive. (I had to wait 3 months to get my Beetle)

 

[RobinPJ]

Obviously a like-for-like comparison is close to impossible but I just specced a base model A1 against a 1.2 Lounge, adding similar options, and the 500 came out at £12,755, the Audi at £15,455.

Its a big difference in percentage terms, but I am surprised it was not bigger. Not sure if that makes the Audi cheap or the Fiat expensive, mind you...

 

[ahmett]

VW group's car are really expensive in terms of EVERYTHING! Fiat 500 is a value for money car! I totally agree with you Ahmett, low priced extras and short delivery time is an incentive. (I had to wait 3 months to get my Beetle)

Dont forget chrislida cars in greece are ridiculously overpriced. Not only government tax, but kirile tax because in greece VW and Audi and BMW are considered superior so they add a premium to them. Mind you, because they are selling zero cars, they are very inclined to add a 'discount', but in reality its just the normal retail price - the 'kirile' tax.

 

[jrkitching]

Not sure if that makes the Audi cheap or the Fiat expensive, mind you...

I'd say the latter.

I've just had a look at one well-known FIAT discount site. To drive away a new base model 1.2 500 will set you back £9900, but a new base 1.2 Panda can be had for £5895.

That's about as close to a like-for-like comparison as you'll find. A 500 has a 68% price premium for what is essentially the same set of components, built in the same factory by the same manufacturer - hence my contention that the 500 is overpriced.