Technical Engine Warning & Cruise Failure

[varesecrazy]

The oil counter should be set to ZERO after an oil change.

Its all part of the DPF systems set.up

Common on here with FIAT cars..

A local garage will change the oil.. go on youtube to find out how to extinguish the service light

Owner pays their £100

Drives around for a week.. then posts on here that the car isnt happy..

Resetting the counter fixes it

I suspect.. that 12k over 3 years COULD be just about enough to trigger oil quality limitations ( the system is adaptive..)

Do you have access to the necessary kit to check and reset the
Oil Degradation Index?

Many on here use MultiECUScan software

There is even a register of people who are prepared to offer assistance with it

Charlie : near the M4

 

[HughJampton]

The service history certainly throws up some interesting possibilities.

Running beyond the defined (or non-reset) oil-change margin defined by the degradation check would almost certainly invoke "limp-mode", (illuminating the EML, but I would also expect other warnings, such as a dedicated message and/or illumination of the oil light).

Even without the oil interval being triggered by the degradation check, the defined interval for oil change is 2 years, and this in itself might trigger a similar response (the general service interval is triggered by time, and often causes a surprise when it doesn't get reset; I'm not sure about the oil service).

It might be worth checking the "Oil Service" status on the trip computer to see if the vehicle thinks it is due one - the display should give you remaining mileage to the required change (and "limp mode"), and unlike the general service interval, AFAIK, it does not reset in "n" miles if you ignore it. (NB, it toggles with the General Service check, don't confuse them).

 

[RS3100]

Oil degradation counter - on vehicles with a DPF there is a software algorithm that calculates the likely condition of the engine oil according to recorded operating conditions and the number and type of DPF regens, etc. If it considers that the oil has degraded to the extent that it is no longer offering full protection to the engine, it progressively puts the vehicle into limp mode, but you should also get a text warning to Change Engine Oil on the dash, as well as the warning lamp illuminating.

Surprised that you haven't changed the engine oil. The maximum interval is 2 years on a time basis, even if the mileage interval has not been reached. For vehicle travelling low mileages, there is an argument that the oil and filter should be changed annually, since it also deteriorates whilst sitting unused in a cold sump with condensation forming and combustion by products sitting in suspension for long periods and not been regularly evaporated or burnt off by the heat of driving. Iveco (who build the multijet engines jointly with Fiat as FPT) recommend annual oil changes for vehicle travelling less than 12,500 miles a year, and before being driven for any vehicle not used for 3 months or more.

When the oil is changed, the service message has to be reset, as with older vehicles, but the oil counter also has to be reset, otherwise the vehicle doesn't know that the oil has been changed, and the software still calculates the likely condition of the oil based on the time of the last oil changed notified to it.

 

[RS3100]

Coaker Coaler I presume

COKE.. red hot in a blacksmiths hearth.. could save the back.flushing (old 2.stroke trick)


I hadnt considered DPF issues..
as had seen zero information regarding warning lights or unsuitable use

Yes, I did mean the drink (other brands are available)

If you type Coke into Google, the drink is the first thing that comes up.

Showing your age by mentioning clinker ;-) The next most likely reference after the drink is surely the white sniffing powder

Might be worth trying that in a DPF - could work wonders!

 

[Steve928]

The system will always try to use passive regenerations where possible. If the DPF breaches a certain level of blockage and passive regens have been interrupted, or not been successful, it will run active regenerations.

In practice, on my Euro6B Ducato at least, passive regeneration seems to have very little effect other than reducing the deposition of soot during periods of high enough DPF temperature. Fast motorway work, especially uphill drags, will see the DPF temperature up into the 500s but even this doesn't seem to decrease the soot level or clog factor, only pause soot deposition. Perhaps some serious motorway hill climbing once we get back abroad in the motorhome will see the passive side of regeneration having better effect.

So far (it's a newish vehicle) in normal UK driving the clog factor just continues to increase until an active regeneration brings the soot level right back down, with 6 or 7 minutes at 650C every 300 miles or so.

 

[RS3100]

In practice, on my Euro6B Ducato at least, passive regeneration seems to have very little effect other than reducing the deposition of soot during periods of high enough DPF temperature. Fast motorway work, especially uphill drags, will see the DPF temperature up into the 500s but even this doesn't seem to decrease the soot level or clog factor, only pause soot deposition. Perhaps some serious motorway hill climbing once we get back abroad in the motorhome will see the passive side of regeneration having better effect.

According to the documents I've seen, there are at least seven driving profiles stored in the ECU which determine exactly how individual regeneration strategies proceed.

On vehicles without adblue, Fiat acknowledge that conditions for spontaneous (passive) regeneration are rarely reached during normal driving profiles. Adblue systems increase the likelihood of spontaneous regenerations as they occur at exhaust temperatures between 280 - 500C.

In practice, regenerations on non-adblue systems (most Ducatos) require exhaust temperatures above 600C and will involve varying degrees of fuel post-injection with turbo and EGR control interventions, according to the driving profile determined by the ECU at the time.

So that seems to fit with your observations.

What has allegedly improved on newer vehicles is the ability to perform successful regenerations at progressively lower engine speeds, so the need to run in a lower gear at high RPM for periods of time as used to be regularly recommended, seems to no longer be necessary (at least as long as everything is working as designed).

 

[JohnCamper]

I have removed the DPF pressure sensor, and note the following ...
Brand: Kavlico
Part numbers on sticker: PE604-5015-1 and 552103040

I have searched around ebay, using the 552103040, and find the following for sale...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DPF-DIFFERENTIAL-PRESSURE-SENSOR-for-IVECO-DAILY-III-IV-FIAT-DUCATO-2-3-3-0-HDI/261096534843?hash=item3cca90f33b:gMwAAOSweKNeMY--

Is this the right part ?
It is visually identical, and my original part number is listed in the compatibility list below the main advert.
I wondered if the part/part number has been updated since the original.

Secondly, as per various threads in forums, I tapped the sensor on my hand, and water splash came out of the two outlets on the sensor. Apparently, this indicates the sensor is nacked.

Would appreciate an expert opinion on my findings and the replacement part on ebay, before I click buy.

p.s I checked the trip computer, and it tells me it doesn't need an oil change for another 7000 miles.
Thanks guys.

 

[JohnCamper]

I want to get Multiecuscan, and I have no problem paying the £50 for the registered version.

So .. I need a laptop, but I hear that any basic 2nd hand laptop will do it.
Also a cable is needed...Slightly confused by all the cables listed on ebay. Any chance of someone posting a link to a suitable quality cable on ebay please?

 

[RS3100]

If you go to Gendan.co.uk you can buy MES and a set of suitable adaptor cables. They are I believe the recommended UK supplier and will be able to advise you.

Alternatively go to http://www.multiecuscan.net/SupportedVehiclesList.aspx and look up your vehicle. The grid will tell you which adapter cables are necessary. I use the multiplex interface, but I think for a 2.3 Ducato you only need the standard OBD cable and the yellow adapter cable A3 for most operations, although I think some vehicles also need the green cable. Gendan should be able to advise though. The cables aren't particularly expensive.

It will run on pretty much any old Windows laptop or netbook. I use an old Acer Aspire netbook running XP.

Re your other post, 55210304 is the correct part number for the pressure sensor on the copy of ePer I have access to, but it may not be fully up to date.

Water in the sensor is an issue, but removing it and blowing through with compressed air until dry can sometimes fix it.

If you intend buying MES I would try drying and refitting the sensor first.

Once you have MES you have access to pretty much dealer level diagnostic information, and you will be able to check when the last regen took place, whether it was successful, average time between regens, how many failed, etc. as well as real time monitoring of the sensor readings, which should indicate any anomalies in its readings and whether they cause the fault to be logged.

I would look into that before buying a replacement. I'm not sure if it is applicable to your van, but apparently modified sensors were introduced in mid 2013. The newer sensor was made by Bosch, but a couple of steel pipes have to be replaced to fit it on earlier vehicles. As the one you have removed isn't Bosch, either it's the earlier type or has previously been replaced with an aftermarket version.

If the sensor does prove to be permanently faulty, you'll have to decide whether to replace it with a similar aftermarket item, or stump up for the more expensive modified replacement from Fiat. I'd see if drying yours out fixes your problem first though.

 

[JohnCamper]

Thats great info, thanks!
I went onto Gendan, and yes, looks like I need the package that contains the OBD cable and the yellow (A3) cable at £97.
Now I just need to get a cheap laptop.

 

[varesecrazy]

Not that its my thing..

But MES seem to have an i.phone version now..

 

[Steve928]

Thats great info, thanks!
I went onto Gendan, and yes, looks like I need the package that contains the OBD cable and the yellow (A3) cable at £97.
Now I just need to get a cheap laptop.

Yes, that's the package I bought from them for my 2019 X290. The adapter supplied is the OBDlink SX rather than a (modified) ELM327 and represents quite a chunk of that £97 but does seem very good.

By the way, for live DPF data I'm using the 'DPF Monitor for Fiat and Alfa Romeo' app for £6.99 reading via a Konnwei KW902 bluetooth module at about £12-16. I think most of the Ducato ECUs are selectable in the app. It's a bit of fun and does allow you to see that you're not interrupting an active regen before switching off the engine.

 

[JohnCamper]

Sadly I think I have to buy the full package of leads.
Being a Ducato novice, I was unsure if I have a facelift model or not, and I'm pretty sure it's not the facelift model, so its got to be the full package from Gendan. Not a big deal, only another £20.
ePer doesn't seem to work, so I had to do some study on the web.

 

[varesecrazy]

ePer doesn't seem to work, so I had to do some study on the web.

The forums Eper is circa2007..

But online dealers have current models

I find the Fiatdalys site excellent

 

[JohnCamper]

Thanks Charlie, just tried it, not sure if it tells me facelift or not.

ZFA250000 02363519

No matter, pretty sure its not facelift. What confused me was that the fuse boxes are not exactly the same as in the manual, so I assumed it was an updated model somehow.

I dried out the DPF pressure sensor, by the way, reconnected it this morning, no luck, same engine warning light.

Not going to make any judgement on that, as it probably needs ECU faults clearing etc before making judgement.

New sensor is on the way, and the MES package will be here this coming week too, so we'll see how that goes.

 

[JohnCamper]

UPDATE

So I got the correct MES package, and it arrived on Tuesday (yesterday), and just WOW, what a brilliant tool. I feel like I was working blindfolded, and now I can see what I am doing!
Gendan were fantastic, rapid and helpful responses to my queries, immediate despatch, great product, great service.

The new DPF pressure differential sensor arrived today. Fitted. Plugged into MES. Told the system a new DPF snsor had been fitted.
At first, I did see an issue whereby the sensor showed an open circuit/short fault.
Got underneath, unplugged the sensor, and re-connected it again.
All good.
DPF is not blocked, according to the system now (reading 30% clogged and classed as within normal parameters. All faults gone. Startup idle from cold is fine. All good.
Even cruise Control is functioning normally (presumable because limp mode is no longer being activated by a dodgy sensor signal)

Conclusion:- The DPF sensor was water logged due to extended period of inactivity (condensation etc), causing eventual failure of the sensor, in turn causing DPF clogging mis-diagnosis and limp mode engagement.

Learning points for me:-


Extended periods of inactivity must be avoided.
MES is a "must have".

I want to say a big thanks to all who have guided me towards the solution and fix in what amounted to less than a week from a point of zero knowledge.

Thanks guys, hope this thread is useful to someone else someday.

 

[varesecrazy]

Thanks guys, hope this thread is useful to someone else someday.

Well done John

You are very welcome.


And..yes.. I'm sure it will
Thats what the forum is for

Charlie

 

[varesecrazy]

Monkey35