General EGR or Injector or MAF

[goggs]

What I had/have is a rough running, hunting, fumes in cab, 2011 Multijet that smoked when cold and had black death on one injector. To date one injector has been replaced as it was erratic in working and another resealed.
However it is still hunting with smoke sometimes. The strange thing is, it was started once, idled lovely and smooth with no smoke so we thought it was solved. But all of a sudden like a switch/sensor being activated, engine returned to rough hunting.

Car pulls great anytime its tested and we recon there's no compression problem like burnt valves.
Trying to get access to ECU but at moment no joy. Another set leads ordered up.

So there you are its an odd problem on what makes it run rough. Access to EGR looks a pain. Can see other two injectors coming out soon.

 

[chris3234]

Dpf regen can cause the smell and increased idel especially if you do a lot of short trips

 

[goggs]

Yes thanks Chris but cab fumes was down to one injector leaking at its seal/copper washer and that resulted in the black deposits. This Panda possibly did do short journeys before I got it last year as it resided in Edinburgh. But since its being getting good runouts down Dumfries way in the country.

Common rail diesels that hunt and smoke sometimes are a rarity. Got to get inside the ECU to scratch its brain...

 

[irc]

Are you sure the glow plugs are all working?
They don't only operate when starting, and our 06 MJ had random rough idle when one of the plugs went weak (tested OK but different test reading to the other 3, so changed it and problem disappeared)

 

[goggs]

There's a thing there Irc, interesting that as after getting into ECU via the Multiecuscan interface, I did a test on the Glow Plugs and Multi said Plugs were ok. Need to look into that issue and get each plug tested.

Needless to say engine smoked with erratic idle today even up to operating temperature.

On the fault section the 4 injectors were up, but they had each been disconnected for testing. Two still suspect though.
Other fault up was for the MAF But Multi call it the Mass Air Pressure sensor. On testing this was showing 23deg but actual temp outside was only about 14deg. Or is this the Boost temperature.
Almost forgot that on test EGR was slightly open, even at idle when it should be closed. 148% open it said, 0.02900inch, just bit bigger than a spark plug gap. Carbon jammed open possibility.

Giving car a boot up the road tomorrow to see if any fault occurs. Still goes like stink mind you..

 

[The Panda Nut]

Hunting could be air in the fuel. Possible air leak on the filter or fuel lines. I have temporarily fixed this by coating the pipe fittings with grease on the filter head. Make sure the filter is still secure too. Sometimes on the Bravo it tries to hunt. Pushing the quick release pipe connections on top of the filter stops it for a reasonable time. Has not played up since the last filter change. Non standard filters seem to be worse the the Fiat ones.

 

[goggs]

Ah Panda Nut this air in fuel issue is a known problem to cause poor starting and cutting out when driving due to the drop in pressure it causes in the Rail. I thought Voyagers letting the air in at their electric and button primer filters was enough but notice it happens in Ducatos as well.

So anyway tested or booted it today on a warm engine and it smoked all the way of about 4 miles and didn't stop till last mile. Nice and clear after that, till next start up that is.

Multi shows no fault codes.
EGR on testing its solenoid operation only said OK on one of the three tests. Unknown on one, not fully working on other so looks to be issue of carbon there.
Hot plugs still say OK but finding the're not up to scratch would be interesting to know..
Fuel pressures all OK. MAF showing 17deg.
Next job is injectors 3+4 to be removed to see if one of them has odd spray pattern or dribbling..

 

[goggs]

Fuel Injectors replacement. refurbished that is, should be a doddle, yes, no, should be. Aye right I say but problem is these injectors I've got in my 2011 part no. 0445110351 are different to the earlier ones. Mine are used in Astra's, Fords, etc as well. Price then comes up, minimum I could get was £85+vat+carriage each. Next one £125+test+vat+carriage each. So I can see why garages charge £1000+ or the job.
So end result was buy abroad and get them delivered for £326 set of four.

Diesel Fix Neuss is the company and you can't miss them on flee-bay. So anyway fitted them today and its idling smother, with a bit smoke though when cold and even bit when heated up. So looks like there's still another issue as in EGR valve which was open slightly on last scan. Going to interrogate brain tomorrow and add injector idents if possible.

 

[g8rpi]

<SNIP>

Other fault up was for the MAF But Multi call it the Mass Air Pressure sensor. On testing this was showing 23deg but actual temp outside was only about 14deg. Or is this the Boost temperature.
Almost forgot that on test EGR was slightly open, even at idle when it should be <SNIP>

The MAP is not another name for MAF, it's the Manifold Air Pressure sensor. This is on the inlet manifold at the back of the engine. It also measures temperature. They can get clogged up and cleaning can help but that does not normally give a fault code.
Get a new MAP sensor and fit it before doing anything else. It's cheap, easy and may be the fault.
Change it, reset faults with MES, driv for a while and re-scan for new codes. With luck there won't be any.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[koalar]

.

On testing this was showing 23deg but actual temp outside was only about 14deg. Or is this the Boost temperature.

ambient air temperature and MAP are both on the same sensor.


before you start the car it should read the same as what Google thinks your location should be give or take a degree.

once the car has started due to being near the hot engine it will rise above the outside tempriture


i am fairly sure the MAP is a generic part and used in a few different cars if you go down the breakers root. Just make sure the numbers match

 

[goggs]

Good guys noting your words. In a rush at mo as Rain is on its way.
Number 1 cylinder, is it flywheel end or chain end. Need for coding injectors. To me number one was always front (as in rear drive) or belt end but Fords Peugeots differ.
And And buzzing internet while sitting in car here and what comes up but "fiat comes with Factory Installed Defect". How to spend 3000 Euros on a Multijet by total car magazine for no reason. Uneven running with lots of blue smoke while cold. Have I fell into this trap. Still to read for the result.

 

[goggs]

Sh*t is this all down to bent conrods due to rainwater getting into engine. There certainly is a bonnet seal missing above engine. Ecu compensates and adds extra fuel to cylinders with more volume hence smoke. Sounds about right, hope not though.

 

[A3jeroen]

There could still be some soot in your exhaust from before.
Give it an Italian Tune-up and look if it's still spitting black smoke afterwards.
Oh.. And reset ECU by disconnecting the battery for a (short) while before driving it.

Edit: cilinder#1 is at the belt

gr J

 

[DaveMcT]

When a petrol gets more fuel it runs rich and sooty. When a diesel gets more fuel it will rev so TBH over-injection is unlikely.

A sooty diesel is down to lack of air. Check the MAP sensor, air filter and EGR. Too much exhaust gas going into the inlet will make it run badly. Hot air = less oxygen. Used hot gas = even less oxygen. Sooty inlet caused by EGR issues also restricts air flow especially if its only ever been driven around town.


Check the turbo pipes for leaks and ensure the turbo boost is controlled correctly. Not enough boost will make it run sooty. Too much boost has the same effect, because the ECU will drop the air pressure and fuel flow has to follow. It then builds up and the hassles happen all over again

 

[goggs]

Ecu would only except new injector codes for cylinders 3+4 rejected other 2 injectors.Tried recoding few times without success. From past repairs I found for car, EGR was replaced in Dec 2015 at cost of £155+labour. They reported sound of exhaust leak atop engine at time, weren't sure from where. Well thats sorted. However engine still smokey, smoke rings look like, like injector of two not getting right signal. Coding it seems sets the injectors up to Bosch settings so by altering the numbers you can play with the fuel injected.

 

[DaveMcT]

Have you check all four compression pressures? If any are out of range you need to work out why.


Diesels will not tolerate water ingestion (anything from bent /broken rods to bent crank) BUT it would have to run into deep water with the engine spinning. Rain alone won't cause such damage.

The best option with injectors is to borrow a completely different set and reset the codes and see how it runs. Then put yours back and reset again. BUT compression must be within range on all cylinders.

 

[goggs]

Injectors 3+4 coded in and are 9 digit codes. Other two are 8 digit codes which you can have on Bosch injectors. Multiscan needs 9 digit codes. Looking into this issue.
There's just so much to read about regarding Injectors alone.
Now here's a thing I read about. I'm fitting 4 rebuilt injectors so the fuel parameters are likely to be different to original coding. I didn't look closely at all but they come with Bosch fueling sheet, so just wondering if there's new coding on that sheet. Find out tomorrow.

 

[goggs]

Nothing at all on pressure test machine output sheet regarding new codes. Been reading even more about injectors, swapping engine issues, Euro3, Euro4, etc.
One thing that might be an issue is: 1st Generation injectors came with 8 Characters. 2nd Generation Injectors came with 9 Characters. And I've got 2 of each. I've a not so funny feeling two will need to go back for exchange.

 

[goggs]

Ah well thats the 4 injectors finally finally coded in and installed. As I just said, coded first before installing as this is an issue. Looking into this possible extra fueling issue thats causing the smoke, not just with cold engine take note. Someone in trade said engine could be trying to do a DPF regeneration due to clogging of DPF which is sitting at 82%. So looking at the sensor side of the DPF which has pipes going off before and after DPF and both go to sensor on baulkhead. One pipe clear but other has a restriction, so is there a valve on this pipe. These pipes it seems have been known to block and sensor changed before finding blockage.

 

[goggs]

Right, sensor pipe before DPF found blocked other one clear. Engine started, given a bit Italian thrashing with plenty smoke. Does smoke still at times.
So anyway gave it a regeneration via the Multicuscan, ooh the smoke, revs to 3,500rpm, good thing we are in countryside.
Completed ok, 100% it said, DPF taken to 635deg, and must admit exhaust now doesn't smell like diesel exhaust. No hunting or uneven tick over.
But need to look into this DPF still clogged 82%, but variation in pressure fore and aft of DPF less than 1 psi. Does not alter performance though.
Tomorrow will tell with cold engine.