Technical Ducato Battery Disconnection

[wavehead]

Okay I have to leave the van for a 5 months, a 2013 2.3 Ducato. I would like to disconnect the earth lead on the engine battery, in the older vans no problem, but with the ECU on the new van I believe this can cause problems when reconnected. Surely this can be done without needing to put a solar or mains charge to the battery to maintain it.
Is there a method???

 

[Anthony489]

Hi wavehead

First question - is this a motorhome with a second (habitation) battery ? If so, I would recommend isolating/disconnecting any solar panels and then disconnecting one side of the habitation battery before tackling the main battery. The reason for this is to eliminate any small risk of this battery continuing to power things after the main battery has been disconnected.

For the main battery, you should play safe by making sure both front doors are shut, then waiting 10 minutes after the ignition key switch has been set to STOP. This should be more than enough time for the various electronic systems to have shut down properly. You can then disconnect one side of the battery.

Fiat workshop procedures frequently start with a requirement to disconnect the battery for safety reasons, and the electronic systems are designed to wake up in an orderly manner when it is reconnected, which might be hours or days later.

You will now be in the situation where the battery has no external current drain. It will however still have its own internal drain (self discharge) . This varies, and will be greater for an older battery than a new one. Doing some crude maths, let's say the internal drain is a typical 0.05 Amps and the battery capacity is 100 Ampere Hours. The battery will be fully discharged after 2000 hours or 3 months. I think that even with a new battery you are probably asking a bit much for it to last 5 months without at least one full recharge. The danger is that if it is left deeply discharged for more than a day or two, it will be permanently damaged.

Realistically, a mid-term recharge might mean removing it to a more convenient location, though I appreciate that they are big old brutes and not the easiest to manhandle out of the battery box. You can begin to see the attraction of a small solar top-up panel mounted on the dashboard and wired direct to the battery. A typical unit would have 0.5 amp (6 watts) output when it is sunny. If it generates this on average for 2.5 hours a day it will balance out the self discharge.

 

[airwave]

Okay I have to leave the van for a 5 months, a 2013 2.3 Ducato. I would like to disconnect the earth lead on the engine battery, in the older vans no problem, but with the ECU on the new van I believe this can cause problems when reconnected. Surely this can be done without needing to put a solar or mains charge to the battery to maintain it.
Is there a method???

I'm a little reluctant to post here , as i'm not sure this is gonna answer your question fully . I only have one vehicle with an ecu , and that vehicle is a 2005 , Suzuki Carry . Bear in mind this is an 05 , as it may have some kind of early version ecu , however i can't confirm this is the case , or even how much it may differ to modern units .
The van was used as a camping car , and insured as such with limited mileage , so spent a good portion of it's time off road . The service battery , had been enlarged to 45 ah , and there was provision for a second leisure battery , however in standby mode , this was never fitted . Kept mot'd and insured , it was serviced , and ready for instant use during the summer , but with the service battery also disconnected . However during the winter not only was this battery disconnected , it was completely removed , it still stood ready for use as a backup to my car . I can confirm , the ecu at no point suffered any problems , let alone anything unusual , during this time . Just reconnect , there would be a strange noise similar to an electric motor winding up , pause a minute , and then start . No difficulty in startup , everything normal .
Now , there is also , a second ecu equipped vehicle in this household , but it doesn't belong to me . It's a 1997 , Rover mini owned by my mother . The battery is a constant source of problems , due to the fact mother , who's retired , simply does not cover enough miles to keep it fully charged . During the recent covid lockdowns , i also disconnected this battery , and we reverted back to my more ancient Citroen . No ecu means the battery can be left connected for upto 6 months , and the car will still start . It also knocks spots of all our other vehicles for fuel economy (72 mpg) . Again the mini suffered no problems upon reconnection . My motorhome also has no ecu , and in standby mode does have both batteries (service and leisure) connected , however these are kept topped up by solar .

I can't really comment on solar , as the Suzuki never had solar permanently fitted . It used a portable unit , which was only deployed while camping . The motorhome does have a 100w panel fitted , which keeps both batteries topped off , a total of around 200 ah . The only time ehu was used , was when the fridge , a portable , 3 way unit was running in the van . However this was not connected to the 12v system . This is also the case with the motorhome now , however this is connected to the 12v system . During the winter months , with the batteries removed , i also disconnect the motorhome solar panel . This involves the removal of the fuse , along with the feed to the solar controller , which was wired to a separate 10 amp connector block for safety .

Like you , i was aware that there could be issues with the ecu , if the battery was removed . However following an incident were the battery died completely , during a layup period , i concluded this as fiction . The vehicle suffered no issues after a new battery was fitted , and started without issue . However , it played havoc with the radio's memory .

 

[wavehead]

Hi wavehead

First question - is this a motorhome with a second (habitation) battery ? If so, I would recommend isolating/disconnecting any solar panels and then disconnecting one side of the habitation battery before tackling the main battery. The reason for this is to eliminate any small risk of this battery continuing to power things after the main battery has been disconnected.

For the main battery, you should play safe by making sure both front doors are shut, then waiting 10 minutes after the ignition key switch has been set to STOP. This should be more than enough time for the various electronic systems to have shut down properly. You can then disconnect one side of the battery.

Fiat workshop procedures frequently start with a requirement to disconnect the battery for safety reasons, and the electronic systems are designed to wake up in an orderly manner when it is reconnected, which might be hours or days later.

You will now be in the situation where the battery has no external current drain. It will however still have its own internal drain (self discharge) . This varies, and will be greater for an older battery than a new one. Doing some crude maths, let's say the internal drain is a typical 0.05 Amps and the battery capacity is 100 Ampere Hours. The battery will be fully discharged after 2000 hours or 3 months. I think that even with a new battery you are probably asking a bit much for it to last 5 months without at least one full recharge. The danger is that if it is left deeply discharged for more than a day or two, it will be permanently damaged.

Realistically, a mid-term recharge might mean removing it to a more convenient location, though I appreciate that they are big old brutes and not the easiest to manhandle out of the battery box. You can begin to see the attraction of a small solar top-up panel mounted on the dashboard and wired direct to the battery. A typical unit would have 0.5 amp (6 watts) output when it is sunny. If it generates this on average for 2.5 hours a day it will balance out the self discharge.

Hi Anthony thanks for the help,however you do not say if you have disconnected the engine battey yourself a few times and had no problems on reconnecting, could you confirm that to reassure me. By the way GOOD batterys will easily start a van after 6 months often on trhe first "turn" if disconnected, I have done it for 25 years
Thanks again

 

[wavehead]

I'm a little reluctant to post here , as i'm not sure this is gonna answer your question fully . I only have one vehicle with an ecu , and that vehicle is a 2005 , Suzuki Carry . Bear in mind this is an 05 , as it may have some kind of early version ecu , however i can't confirm this is the case , or even how much it may differ to modern units .
The van was used as a camping car , and insured as such with limited mileage , so spent a good portion of it's time off road . The service battery , had been enlarged to 45 ah , and there was provision for a second leisure battery , however in standby mode , this was never fitted . Kept mot'd and insured , it was serviced , and ready for instant use during the summer , but with the service battery also disconnected . However during the winter not only was this battery disconnected , it was completely removed , it still stood ready for use as a backup to my car . I can confirm , the ecu at no point suffered any problems , let alone anything unusual , during this time . Just reconnect , there would be a strange noise similar to an electric motor winding up , pause a minute , and then start . No difficulty in startup , everything normal .
Now , there is also , a second ecu equipped vehicle in this household , but it doesn't belong to me . It's a 1997 , Rover mini owned by my mother . The battery is a constant source of problems , due to the fact mother , who's retired , simply does not cover enough miles to keep it fully charged . During the recent covid lockdowns , i also disconnected this battery , and we reverted back to my more ancient Citroen . No ecu means the battery can be left connected for upto 6 months , and the car will still start . It also knocks spots of all our other vehicles for fuel economy (72 mpg) . Again the mini suffered no problems upon reconnection . My motorhome also has no ecu , and in standby mode does have both batteries (service and leisure) connected , however these are kept topped up by solar .

I can't really comment on solar , as the Suzuki never had solar permanently fitted . It used a portable unit , which was only deployed while camping . The motorhome does have a 100w panel fitted , which keeps both batteries topped off , a total of around 200 ah . The only time ehu was used , was when the fridge , a portable , 3 way unit was running in the van . However this was not connected to the 12v system . This is also the case with the motorhome now , however this is connected to the 12v system . During the winter months , with the batteries removed , i also disconnect the motorhome solar panel . This involves the removal of the fuse , along with the feed to the solar controller , which was wired to a separate 10 amp connector block for safety .

Like you , i was aware that there could be issues with the ecu , if the battery was removed . However following an incident were the battery died completely , during a layup period , i concluded this as fiction . The vehicle suffered no issues after a new battery was fitted , and started without issue . However , it played havoc with the radio's memory .

Hi thanks for all that its reassuring. I do have solar I could cross connect but it wouldn't get the sun really and I am happier with a dead vehicle whilst away.

 

[airwave]

Hi thanks for all that its reassuring. I do have solar I could cross connect but it wouldn't get the sun really and I am happier with a dead vehicle whilst away.

There is a security aspect too . My motorhome is sat on the drive right now . Yes it is wheel clamped , and yes both batteries are removed . But perhaps the biggest security measure in place at this time , is a portion of the engine is in pieces , so even with the best will in the world , it ent gonna start .

Edit , i never mentioned this , in my first post , but i treat all batteries the same . If i have more than one fitted to any one vehicle , i would never disconnect one battery , and leave the second connected . So if you do disconnect the service battery , i seriously advise you disconnect any leisure battery fitted as well .
When reconnecting my motorhome , i always fit the service battery first , then the leisure . Then i reconnect the solar converter , but with the panels still disconnected . The reason for this , is so the controller has chance to identify the voltage of the battery . Many panels operate at 20v , so connecting a charge controller with the panel connected . There is a slim chance the battery could be exposed to 20v dc , which wouldn't do it a lot of good . By connecting the charge controller first without the panel , this is eliminated .

 

[Keith Spencer]

Should have no problems with disconnecting and reconnecting. But be aware your disconnected battery will loose it's charge naturally and be useless after 2 to 3 months anyway. I use a little solar panel connected direct it keeps the battery operational.

 

[airwave]

Should have no problems with disconnecting and reconnecting. But be aware your disconnected battery will loose it's charge naturally and be useless after 2 to 3 months anyway. I use a little solar panel connected direct it keeps the battery operational.

Sorry Keith , but i have to partially disagree here . I have a 6 year old Banner battery , that still holds a charge for an absolutely minimum of 6 months . This battery was removed 3 years ago , where i topped the cells up , and boost charged it . During this lay up period , it was not connected to anything , and stored on a bench outta the way . I did keep an eye on the charge level , and only charged it when it reached 12.5 volts , but the fact is i was only charging about once a year . I checked the charge prior to refitting about a week ago , and it still registered 12.9 volts , and though i still gave it a top up charge on a low setting , it only accepted about 3 ah , quickly dropping to 2 .

On a point of information , it does appear to be important not to keep a battery on the floor . I came by this information a few years ago , and have always complied since .

 

[chris3234]

Its rare for a battery to last 6 month or more without being recharged

 

[the green vanper]

I use a little solar panel connected direct it keeps the battery operational.

Solar panels give around 20V. How this is supposed to be safe for the battery?

Unless it is not a 12V nominal voltage battery. Or unless there's a controller in the panel itself, but then it's not a direct connection...

Such posts shouldn't be put without an explanation, as they can cause serious problems.

Should have no problems with disconnecting and reconnecting.

There is a special procedure for x250s and x290s Ducatos to apply when disconnecting the starter battery. There are numerous known cases when doing it wrong blew the airbag module, which is a costly repair

 

[Keith Spencer]

Sorry Keith , but i have to partially disagree here . I have a 6 year old Banner battery , that still holds a charge for an absolutely minimum of 6 months . This battery was removed 3 years ago , where i topped the cells up , and boost charged it . During this lay up period , it was not connected to anything , and stored on a bench outta the way . I did keep an eye on the charge level , and only charged it when it reached 12.5 volts , but the fact is i was only charging about once a year . I checked the charge prior to refitting about a week ago , and it still registered 12.9 volts , and though i still gave it a top up charge on a low setting , it only accepted about 3 ah , quickly dropping to 2 .

On a point of information , it does appear to be important not to keep a battery on the floor . I came by this information a few years ago , and have always complied since .

Hi airwave,
Thanks for the response, it highlighted my stupid error so I will correct as follows.
If a battery is left connected to a vehicle, then depending on the age, condition, type and ambient temperature and vehicle sleeping parasitic load drain, then the battery will lose its charge at a rate of 1%/day approx. If the battery is removed from the vehicle/disconnected then the loss of charge will be 5%/month approx.
Ie 50% down in 10 months.
To save all the agro all I do is face the windscreen South and direct connect a small cheap solar panel to the battery, even in winter it's sufficient to keep it healthy, with a correctly sized solar panel. PS no controller necessary.
Keith

 

[the green vanper]

to keep it healthy, with a correctly sized solar panel. PS no controller necessary.

Again, a harmful post.

Lead-acid batteries explained:

BU-403: Charging Lead Acid

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

And the most interesting line:

"The correct setting of the charge voltage limit is critical and ranges from 2.30V to 2.45V per cell."

As there are 6 cells in a typical 12V battery, it makes the maximum charging voltage at 14,7 V.

Typical 12V nominal voltage solar panels produce:

"Most "12 volt" panels put out about 16 to 20 volts, so if there is no regulation the batteries will be damaged from overcharging."

Those are of course voltages in ideal conditions, but leaving the panel unattended we have no control of the voltage. Controllers do it for us. That's why their usage is necessary.

Solar Charge Controller Basics

A charge controller or charge regulator is basically a voltage and/or current regulator to keep batteries from overcharging. It regulates the voltage and current coming from the solar panels going to the battery. Most

www.solar-electric.com

How Many Volts Does a Solar Panel Produce? - Energy Theory

How Many Volts Does a Solar Panel Produce: A solar panel with a size of 156 mm * 156 mm produces 0.5 Volts under the STC.

energytheory.com

According to the second website, you'd need a 29 cells solar panel not to exceed the safe charging voltage of 14,7 V. But there's no guarantee that the panel will produce enough voltage to charge the battery not in ideal conditions.

No, there are no 29 cells solar panels available on the market. Perhaps you could order one. But it will be much cheaper to use a foldable panel with a controller inside.

 

[Nurds]

Solar panels give around 20V. How this is supposed to be safe for the battery?

Unless it is not a 12V nominal voltage battery. Or unless there's a controller in the panel itself, but then it's not a direct connection...

Such posts shouldn't be put without an explanation, as they can cause serious problems.



There is a special procedure for x250s and x290s Ducatos to apply when disconnecting the starter battery. There are numerous known cases when doing it wrong blew the airbag module, which is a costly repair

Hi. I have a Ducato 2015 and that is exactly what has just happened to me. Faulty airbag ECU meant it failed the MOT. Fiat have quoted me close to £1,000 to fix!! I can probably get it reprogrammed for much less tho

 

[airwave]

Again, a harmful post.

Actually no , it's not , but by the same yard stick , it's not totally accurate either .
The panels mentioned here , are not the same panels you're thinking of ! . These panels are specifically meant for trickle charging a battery while it's stood idle , charge controller built in . In all honestly they are a bit of a gimmick . I had one back in the 80's , if i remember correctly it was something like 19w , just don't quote me on that .
They are quite literally plug and play , plug it into the cigarette lighter , put the panel in the windscreen , and leave it to play . They are sold as 12v , and normally only produce a small current . I did test mine , and discovered it produced around a half an amp at noon , with a high sun .To be frank , i wasn't that impressed , but it is possible they have moved on since .
I think the majority of them now are around 6w , but amperage will still be quite small .

Here i've managed to source an example , Correction to the above 5w

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/31402002...8Al5gycPZHwVbwZhsVJ0xdHkjQ==|tkp:BFBM3Knt6JZi

Take a look . I don't actually recognise your flag , so i'm not sure where you are , but i'm guessing it's somewhere mainland Europe . It's entirely possible they may not be available in your home country .

 

[the green vanper]

Actually no , it's not , but by the same yard stick , it's not totally accurate either .
The panel mentioned here , is not the same panels you're thinking of ! . These panels are specifically meant for trickle charging a battery while it's stood idle . In all honestly they are a bit of a gimmick . I had one back in the 80's , if i remember correctly it was something like 19w , just don't quote me on that . Quite literally plug and play , plug it into the ciggy lighter , put the panel in the windscreen , and leave to get on with it . They are sold as 12v , and normally only produce a small current . I did test mine , and discovered it produced around a quarter amp at noon , with a high sun .To be frank , i wasn't that impressed , but it is possible they have moved on since .
I think the majority of them now are around 6w , but amperage will still be quite small . I've managed to source an example ,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/31402002...8Al5gycPZHwVbwZhsVJ0xdHkjQ==|tkp:BFBM3Knt6JZi

Take a look . I don't actually recognise your flag , so i'm not sure where you are , but i'm guessing somewhere mainland Europe , it's possible they may not be available over your way .

Such panels have normally tiny controllers inside. But it's enough to make it safe to the battery. It's not a simple solar panel. So if you connect it to the battery, it's not a direct connection.

The one you linked is very small, but it's more or less the same principle I've mentioned in the last sentence of my previous post.

Don't forget it's a thread about campers/motorhomes. We use solar panels on our roofs. I've seen vans with much as 2 kWp, mine is going to have 1,4 kWp to charge 400 Ah LTO batteries. Newer Ducatos can have AGM or EFB starter batteries, there's no way connecting a solar panel directly to either of the batteries (starter/leisure) will be safe for them.

 

[airwave]

The one you linked is very small, but it's more or less the same principle I've mentioned in the last sentence of my previous post.

Yes and this is the panel , @Keith Spencer , is referring too . I would also like to point you to post one , where it's clearly stated "engine battery" , which on modern vans , is prone to going flat after only a couple of weeks of inactivity .


There's been no mention of hab batteries , which are normally a separate entity , and disconnected though the motorhome power management system .

 

[the green vanper]

If I understood 'the solar panel you spoke about' being a solar panel only it means than others can understand it the same way. Neither of you until post #14 posted an information that you are not talking about a simple solar panel but a model which includes a charge controller or any other circuit which is ment to limit the overvoltage. @Keith Spencer even wrote that it's a direct connection and there's no need to use a charge controller.

And this is the only reason why we shall post PRECISE information only.

I totally agree with your information about the first post of this thread. And all of my posts were also refferring to 'engine/starter batteries' only. But same rules apply to all lead-acid batteries. And similar ones (with possibly different voltages) apply to AGM / EFB batteries, which as I wrote in the previous post can be used in newer vans fitted with a Start/Stop system. The only sentence where I was referring to leisure batteries was when I wrote about my own setup in the previous post.

Look at my first post in this thread, post #10. Fourth sentence...

And again, there's a special procedure to disconnect the engine/starter battery in x250 and x290 Ducatos (+Citroen Jumper/Relay, Peugeot Boxer, Ram Promaster and also the newest model of Opel/Vauxhall Movano, which are all the same vans). Neither of you wrote about it, but both of you claimed there's no harm to disconnect the engine/starter battery from the x250 Ducato. Read the owners' manual if you own one. Don't believe it? Ask @Nurds...

Dixit.

The fact that you're here a little bit longer than I am does not mean you're the only one to be right. Sorry.

 

[wavehead]

Hi wavehead

First question - is this a motorhome with a second (habitation) battery ? If so, I would recommend isolating/disconnecting any solar panels and then disconnecting one side of the habitation battery before tackling the main battery. The reason for this is to eliminate any small risk of this battery continuing to power things after the main battery has been disconnected.

For the main battery, you should play safe by making sure both front doors are shut, then waiting 10 minutes after the ignition key switch has been set to STOP. This should be more than enough time for the various electronic systems to have shut down properly. You can then disconnect one side of the battery.

Fiat workshop procedures frequently start with a requirement to disconnect the battery for safety reasons, and the electronic systems are designed to wake up in an orderly manner when it is reconnected, which might be hours or days later.

You will now be in the situation where the battery has no external current drain. It will however still have its own internal drain (self discharge) . This varies, and will be greater for an older battery than a new one. Doing some crude maths, let's say the internal drain is a typical 0.05 Amps and the battery capacity is 100 Ampere Hours. The battery will be fully discharged after 2000 hours or 3 months. I think that even with a new battery you are probably asking a bit much for it to last 5 months without at least one full recharge. The danger is that if it is left deeply discharged for more than a day or two, it will be permanently damaged.

Realistically, a mid-term recharge might mean removing it to a more convenient location, though I appreciate that they are big old brutes and not the easiest to manhandle out of the battery box. You can begin to see the attraction of a small solar top-up panel mounted on the dashboard and wired direct to the battery. A typical unit would have 0.5 amp (6 watts) output when it is sunny. If it generates this on average for 2.5 hours a day it will balance out the self discharge.

Thanks for all replies. Okay I did disconnect the batteries on both my Fiat and a Nissan Micra, 6 months later both vehicles started in March perfectly without any need of any charging, I will be doing the same this year with a bit more confidence. I will say I knew both batteries were newish and were working properly, fingers crossed!