Technical Ducato 3.0 2009 Stranded Non Starter (Actually a Boxer)

[Philblack]

Further update, replaced the fuel filter, freshly charged battery and another non start event, no codes or EML showing. I already had the cover off from the floor panel between the seats, no sound of fuel pump priming, I can hear the relay clicking on and then off again after about 10 sec or so. Put a multi-meter on the pump connections at the fuel tank lid and this confirms that 12v is coming on with ignition on and then going off about 10 sec later, as would be expected. So I think this now confirms that the fuel pump is dead/dying, I ordered a new one a couple of days ago and it should be arriving Thurs or Fri.

Charlie 58 - The code only appeared after the Spanish mechanic had been cranking the engine a long time with additional booster cables and also using easy-start, which made the engine run for perhaps 20 -30 sec. The rev counter needle does move when cranking and my bluetooth reader shows 200rpm when trying. When in Spain we did replace the crank sensor, the original was a Bosch the replacement is a Meat and Doria, as it now appears this wasn't the issue do you think I should put the Bosch back on or just keep hold of it as a spare? The original earth strap was replaced about 7 years ago and checking it in the last few days it still looks in good condition, although the connection bolts now look a bit tarnished.

Out of interest at what mileage did you have to replace the timing chains?

Cheers Phil

 

[jackwhoo]

Put a bulb at least 21w on the pump terminals and see if it lights when key on....... that load tests the circuit.

A volt meter can show battery voltage but that doesn't prove ability to provide current.

Having just written this you had pump connected when checking voltage which if wiring iffy and pump ok voltage would have dropped to zero.

 

[Communicator]

Further update, replaced the fuel filter, freshly charged battery and another non start event, no codes or EML showing. I already had the cover off from the floor panel between the seats, no sound of fuel pump priming, I can hear the relay clicking on and then off again after about 10 sec or so. Put a multi-meter on the pump connections at the fuel tank lid and this confirms that 12v is coming on with ignition on and then going off about 10 sec later, as would be expected. So I think this now confirms that the fuel pump is dead/dying, I ordered a new one a couple of days ago and it should be arriving Thurs or Fri.

Charlie 58 - The code only appeared after the Spanish mechanic had been cranking the engine a long time with additional booster cables and also using easy-start, which made the engine run for perhaps 20 -30 sec. The rev counter needle does move when cranking and my bluetooth reader shows 200rpm when trying. When in Spain we did replace the crank sensor, the original was a Bosch the replacement is a Meat and Doria, as it now appears this wasn't the issue do you think I should put the Bosch back on or just keep hold of it as a spare? The original earth strap was replaced about 7 years ago and checking it in the last few days it still looks in good condition, although the connection bolts now look a bit tarnished.

Out of interest at what mileage did you have to replace the timing chains?

Cheers Phil

That seems to be a logical course of action. However my thoughts echo those of @jackwhoo in post#22, and that was before I noticed his post.

 

[Philblack]

Thank you both, so I was premature in my diagnosis! Following your suggestions I retested for voltage under load, using a 55w headlamp bulb. Unfortunately voltage was 0v under load, removing load and voltage recovers to approx 12v, although this did vary between 9v and 12v on different test attempts, so well below 12.6v measured at battery. I think this now points to a wiring fault?

I have undertaken various tests to isolate exactly where and have started to expose parts of the loom. Rather frustratingly, possibly as a result of my disturbing and moving cables, the fault has "rectified" and I am getting full voltage under at the pump under load and the van is starting again.

I am starting to systematically isolate sections of the loom, and test for continuity whilst moving/wriggling/pulling on cables and connectors.

 

[jackwhoo]

55w bulb may be a bit much..... please don't use that again unless you confirm a working pump draws 5amps or more. If the pump is operated direct by ecu (not via a relay)you run the risk of burning out the ecu.
Find the pump relay-if it has one.

Reread your post and happily see van is starting .

 

[Communicator]

55w bulb may be a bit much..... please don't use that again unless you confirm a working pump draws 5amps or more. If the pump is operated direct by ecu (not via a relay)you run the risk of burning out the ecu.
Find the pump relay-if it has one.

Reread your post and happily see van is starting .

The Fiat x250 Training Manual, shows a pump relay (T10) and discrete 15A fuse (F21), so BCM well protected from any excess current in pump circuit.

However filament bulb loads should be regarded as being similar to a large capacitor, with high inrush current. Resistance is proportional to absolute temperature. Bulb filament starts at circa 300K, and illuminated temperature can be as high as 5000K, so initial current is high.

Happy to read that the engine is now starting. My x244 2.8jtd has a discrete cable harness for the fuel pump and guage, which runs rearwards from inside the LHS front wheel arch. I thought that could be subject to vibration, and that routing could be improved. See attached before and after photos, which unfortunately do not have identical camera angle/settings.

 

[Philblack]

Advice heeded and I will use a lower wattage bulb in future for any further testing, I had seen that the fuel pump itself was rated 10a and protected by a 15a fuse and through a relay rated at 20a so thought circa 5a for testing would be ok. No such luck with the X250 having a separate fuel pump loom, all the wiring disappears into the main loom which runs crosswise under the cab flooring/sound deadening and underneath both front seats.

I half expected to find the damaged wire under the flooring between the front seats as this is the area we step on whenever we move from front to back in the van but after removing the passenger seat, lots of trim and partial flooring all the wires and bundles seem intact and undamaged, the earth wire goes to a point in the passenger step area and this was clean and sound.

The positive supply goes through the main loom into the junction box attached to the body computer but, according to eLearn wiring diagram, passes straight out through the other main connector and then passes through the engine compartment bulkhead etc. Load (bulb) testing from the pump connector to the "in" of the junction box, with vigorous movement of the cable at various points no fault found, however testing from the pump to the "out" connector I can make the bulb flicker and even stay off completely just by minute movements of the wire immediately at the point it goes into the connector. Stripping back the insulation in this wire, shows nice shiny copper with no damage. Superficially the male and female parts of the connector look nice and clean but a closer look with an illuminated magnifying glass shows slight surface tarnish and the sprung part of the female connector is definitely not as close together as those on the adjacent pins, so less clamping force on the male spade. I have managed to de-pin the connector and very carefully "adjusted" the metal tab to provide more clamping force, visually it looks the same as the other pins now. My other half has just returned from Screwfix with contact cleaner, so I will be applying that to all connectors and junctions in the circuit. All my testing has been done with the battery disconnected and relay pulled so no chance of damaging anything.

Ideally I would like to either replace the connector or just re-pin it but so far I have not seen anything new for sale that matches, It is a Delphi 32 pin lever type. I have seen a couple of SH ones on eBay but would be wary they may be no better than what I have.

I will let you know how I get on after cleaning the contacts and putting everything back together

 

[jackwhoo]

Splice in a new section of suitable wire ,jumping over the connector , joining the two sections of loom.
The connector is pretty much just to make production easier .

 

[Philblack]

New wire spliced between incoming and outgoing wires to bypass the possibly bad pins in the junction box. Also new fuel pump arrived this afternoon and fitted that. Van started fine so felt confident enough to take it for a test drive. Everything feels normal, smooth and pulls well, didn't risk stopping away from home yet though, (its never stopped whilst driving, only failures to start/restart) did about 20 miles of mixed driving at speed varying from 20mph (Wales) up to 70mph. Back home and restarted fine. Going to repeat this test a number of times over the next few weeks, and try starting two or three times a day to see if the intermittent non start is now cured.