Technical Ducato 230 Engine Swap > From JTD to TD

[bugsymike]

Thanks for the positive feedback. Nice to know about the injector pumps "sucking capability". I will try my current setup, with the electric pump just acting as a prime pump.
The JTD sensor counts flywheel teeth, so does the IdTD sensor. But just plugging the IdTD sensor to the JTD cable did not work. I will try to get some electrical schematics, maybe I can make it work with the W on the alternator.

The 2.0JTD did not have an intercooler but I will run one ofcorse. I already heard alot about the engines tuning capabilities

I replaced the gear selector unit as a hole, I got it used for 60€.
The gearbox came with the engine, so the drive ratios should be ok.

Thinking back to my boat with that engine, I fitted a new tank in the floor about three metres from the engine and slightly lower, no other primer pump so the injector pump was able to pull the fuel no problem on it's own.
As Jack says about W on alternator and I recall my Auto electrician mentioning that in the past also.
I did measure the revs on my boat , but only when testing and used a Bosch Rev Counter that had a pick up clamped to No.1 injector pipe to check timing also. My max speed in boat equated to around 3800 rpm if I recall after much playing with prop pitch.

 

[bugsymike]

Another thing I noticed on you new engine , am I right the square plastic breather box has a pipe snapped off ?
I found this old engine photo that shows the pipe on the top right hand side of the box.

 

[Communicator]

As on attached diagram of Iveco engine.

 

[Communicator]

A few more days went past. The right engine mount was giving me a bit of a struggle, to find the correct part. The left side I was able to reuse my existing one.

View attachment 450891

But now the motor found its new home and runs very well with just the necessary bits connected at the moment. I decided to leave the ecu in the car, as it handles the relay for the starter motor when the key is turned. Also I want to get the tachometer to run and use the existing glow time relay for triggering the flame start unit.

View attachment 450890

Here you can see my selfmade clutch actuator bracket

View attachment 450892

A few questions popped up that need adressing:

1. The JTD had 3 fuellines coming from the filter housing. 2 of them beeing feed lines with one of them including a relief valve in the banjo bolt. Is this necessary to "bleed off" access pressure or can I get rid of the 3rd line and just have the electric pump push as much as it can? On the IdTD itself there are only 2 lines, feed and return

2. The fuelpump primes on key on and also when cranking, but then it shuts off. What kind of signal and where wants the ECU to see in order to keep the electric pump running. I suspect rail pressure? If there is no easy solution I will rewire the electric pump to ignition on. The engine idles fine without the electric pump even running, but it might me a problem once the engine needs to put down power.

3. And maybe someone knows how the JTD rpm gauge works, I really want it to show something

4. How much gearoil and which weight should I put in the transmission in order to not blow 5th gear?

I really like the noise the Iveco unit is making. Sounds raw and hefty I have been following your progress with admiration.

I have been following your progress with admiration.

On eLearn diagrams for the x244 2.0jtd, the ignition switch is directly connected to the starter motor solenoid. The ECU is not involved. Same applies on my 2.8jtd.

The tachometer could be a problem as detailed diagrams do not seem to be available.

Operating the flame starter correctly from a 2.0jtd ECU may not be possible, as the flame starter has both glow plug and fuel valve to operate. I
think that the glow plug is heated before the fuel valve is opened. Also unlike glow plugs, it is only used at ambient temperatures below 0C.
Apparently the x230 2.8idTD used a special relay for the flame starter. This is now obselete. For more information on the flame starter see Motor Roam website

In answer to the questions.

1. I do not know, but will research out of interest.
2. The ECU needs to see the engine started, to keep the pump running. Fuel pressure is not mentioned.
3. As above difficult to find out. Sigal is from crank sensor via ECU, which may modify the signal. On x244 needle is driven by a stepper motor. I would expect it to be a pulse rate input, but is it? Pulse rate will probably be different to that obtained from an alternator.
4. For my later MLGU box the capacity is 2.7 +/- 0.3 litres. The advice that I try to follow with 5th gea,r is not to use it for the first 2km.

Engine cooling fan control would have been via the ECU and its own sensor. I am not sure how control was made on the x230 2.8idTD, but earlier vehicles used a two stage (double) radiator thermostat operating the fans via relays. Some thought required, as fan relays will currently be in engine bay fusebox, and controlled via the ECU which has no input.

Sorry if I seem negative, but it is the peripheral parts that take the time.

 

[grachal]

Thanks for your suggestions. Other stuff was going on, so no progress last week.
The breather box I will glue a new snout to it, as you assumed correctly it has broken off.
The two fuel feed lines coming from the filterhousing I Y-piped together. So any pressure exeeding the relief valve pressure can find its way back into the filter via the second hose its placed on. I do not know if this is its intended purpose, but this is what it has been like on the JTD. Also atleast at idle it seems to work.
Thanks for the input on the gearbox. I will follow your practice
The cooling fan is something I didn't take into account. I will wire in a universal Relay, connected to a temperature switch, as I happen to have one laying around. Also on the thermostat housing there is an extra port that I can use for it.

 

[grachal]

Does anyone know where I can get a Key On +12V on the 230 chassis? Currently im still running switches for the shut off solenoid and fuel pump, but i want to have it switched via a relay on the ignition key. I want to avoid routing a cable from the cabin. Is there a ignition +12V present in the engine bay?

 

[Communicator]

Does anyone know where I can get a Key On +12V on the 230 chassis? Currently im still running switches for the shut off solenoid and fuel pump, but i want to have it switched via a relay on the ignition key. I want to avoid routing a cable from the cabin. Is there a ignition +12V present in the engine bay?

Hi Grachal,
Particularly in an x230 engine bay that previously housed a 2.0jtd engine?

After some thought, and research, I suggest trying terminal A58 on your old ECU. On the x244 diagrams this is designated as "IGN". also supplies code receiver. Please prove before attaching any wiring.

With apologies for perhaps "preaching to the converted", I suggest using a relay with internal resistor in parallel with the coil.

 

[grachal]

Thanks for the quick info. Just tried it out and it works like a charm. Its a orange wire, for anyone wondering.

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for the quick info. Just tried it out and it works like a charm. Its a orange wire, for anyone wondering.

Again at the risk of repeating what you already know, your replacement engine will have an injection advance device that also requires an ignition switched supply.

 

[grachal]

Thanks for the reminder, i know of the ignition advancer.
But i feel like it does not do anything, so my plan for now is do not even mount it on the injection pump.
I actuated the lever by hand on a cold engine and did not notice any difference at all.

 

[Communicator]

Hi @grachal,

Have you made any further progress?

 

[grachal]

Hi @grachal,

Have you made any further progress?

Thanks for asking
However it has not been going very well. The engine developed a noise after driving a few kilometers.
Turned out the rod bearings were completely done.
As the crank was fine I quickly replaced them, just to see that the noise has not changed.
I couldn’t check the main bearings because that would involve removing the engine and gearbox from the car again.
I’m now suspecting a tipping piston. But I need to remove the head to be sure
If it’s the case, where could I source a new piston?
And the alternator is not charging sporadically, need to adress that too.

 

[bugsymike]

Pistons and rings etc. should be still available , but look for Sofim 8104.*** details rather than Fiat.
I have replaced main bearings on those engines , but as you say engine out and total bottom end strip due to bearing carrier design.

 

[Communicator]

If problems only appeared after driving a few kilometres, then I am tempted to wonder about a partially blocked oilway. I do hope that is not so. The alternator should be a relatively simple matter, when compared to the other problems.