Technical Cutting out while in gear

[Spiderman1980]

Hi. I currently own a 1980 Spider, purchased 20 yrs ago. I'm having an issue with it cutting out/sputtering while in gear. Out of gear it revs all the way. Mechanic did a solid verification with the tune up and injectors and checked as many grounds as possible, but issue still ongoing. He said it will be a process of elimination. So we started with replacing the plugs and wiring. Same issue. Adjusted the timing. Same. Replaced the fuel pump and filter. Same. Replaced the fuel replay switch. Same. The only thing left would be the ECU. As I search for a replacement, I'm finding its not that easy. Either its taking a chance on a "used" unit or getting my unit re-programmed through Flagship One out of NY State at $650USD. Look forward to hearing any tips from the group.

 

[bugsymike]

Hi. I currently own a 1980 Spider, purchased 20 yrs ago. I'm having an issue with it cutting out/sputtering while in gear. Out of gear it revs all the way. Mechanic did a solid verification with the tune up and injectors and checked as many grounds as possible, but issue still ongoing. He said it will be a process of elimination. So we started with replacing the plugs and wiring. Same issue. Adjusted the timing. Same. Replaced the fuel pump and filter. Same. Replaced the fuel replay switch. Same. The only thing left would be the ECU. As I search for a replacement, I'm finding its not that easy. Either its taking a chance on a "used" unit or getting my unit re-programmed through Flagship One out of NY State at $650USD. Look forward to hearing any tips from the group.

Any chance of a video in both conditions and idling and revving.

 

[124BC1]

So, the engine revs up normally out of gear but cuts out/sputters while in gear?
If you put it in gear and hold the clutch down (i.e. disengaged) does the engine then rev up normally? In other words, is it the action of selecting a gear that is causing the engine to cut out/sputter or is it being caused by applying a load to the engine?

Has your Mechanic hooked up any electronic engine diagnostic equipment to see what is happening to the ignition system and fuel system (exhaust gas analysis) when the sputtering occurs? In the absence of a 'rolling-road' he could support the rear axle on axle (jack) stands and run the car in gear and gently apply the brakes to see what is happening under load (taking the usual safety precautions when doing so!).

I don't have info on the 124's after c.1976 (when F.I. was introduced) but, on the earlier cars there were some switches involved with the emissions equipment. Iirc, one of these switches was fitted on the transmission and closed? when the car was in gear - perhaps this switch is faulty.

Also, make sure that all connections to the ECU, including any earths/grounds, are clean and free from corrosion. Replacing/re-programming your ECU should be a last resort and only done after everything else has been ruled out.

 

[Spiderman1980]

Any chance of a video in both conditions and idling and revving.

Well you won't believe it. This morning I woke up with the intention of attempting to tackle the ECU issue. I had never touched it before and didn't know what to expect. I could not find any help videos showing how to access/remove the unit from under the glove compartment. After a few minutes I was able to drop it down. They don't give you much to extend the unit, but finally I figured out how it disengaged. The casing wasn't too bad, most of the units i had seen were in far worse condition. I took it to my work bench and opened it up. It had a burnt smell but I could not see any damaged resistors or capacitors. I blew it out with some tank air, re-assembled it and hooked it back to the cable. I didn't re-mount it just left it hanging. I started up the car and took it for a spin. From 5 minutes to 10-20-30 all was good! I could not believe it. Later in the day I took a chance and headed for the highway. An hour later, not an issue! WTH! Could it have been that simple? Was it the air cleaning? The pulling of the cables? Or just luck?
I'll let you know how things develop in the next few days.
Montreal is hosting the Italian Automobile Festival (known as the Fiat Breakout) this Sunday. I hope to be there!

 

[bugsymike]

Might even have been a dry/poor connection at the ECU. Fingers crossed.
I always prefer finding something definitive to put my mind at rest.

 

[bazookaboy]

nice work mate, sometimes it's the simple fixes that do the trick!

 

[Spiderman1980]

So it's been about two weeks since the mysterious ECU issue seems to have gone. Fingers crossed it was just a loose connection. Like Bugsymike said, it would be nice to confirm that was it and find the connection wire!
Today, another mystery. Driving along all is well. as I get home and turn into my driveway, NO BRAKES! WTF!!! Pressing the brake pedal all i hear is a kind of venting? I was able too grab my hand brake in time! I looked under the hood, brake fluid level is good. Checked under the car for leaks, nada!
I pressed the pedal and again it went soft and had that vent sound. I also noticed that the the engine would drop in rpm when the pedal was pressed.
I had replaced the master cylinder a few years ago and did a full pads, rotors, caliper job as well.
Not sure what this is all about?

 

[bugsymike]

So it's been about two weeks since the mysterious ECU issue seems to have gone. Fingers crossed it was just a loose connection. Like Bugsymike said, it would be nice to confirm that was it and find the connection wire!
Today, another mystery. Driving along all is well. as I get home and turn into my driveway, NO BRAKES! WTF!!! Pressing the brake pedal all i hear is a kind of venting? I was able too grab my hand brake in time! I looked under the hood, brake fluid level is good. Checked under the car for leaks, nada!
I pressed the pedal and again it went soft and had that vent sound. I also noticed that the the engine would drop in rpm when the pedal was pressed.
I had replaced the master cylinder a few years ago and did a full pads, rotors, caliper job as well.
Not sure what this is all about?

I would guess a hydraulic failure, either the pressure seals in the master cylinder (unlikely to be the end seal by pedal rod as you would lose brake fluid down the pedal) or if your Spider is like the 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV I had many years ago the brake servo, that had two separate brake servos, one for each section of the dual circuit braking system mounted independently under the bonnet/hood.
Either of these can result in a sudden loss of braking with no loss of fluid.
I would say frightening though it is , due to "dual circuit type systems, though the pedal may feel like it drops to the floor, in most cases it drops approx 50-70% which though not good should mean the other half of the circuit has some stopping power.
Unlike a 1955 Land Rover Recovery vehicle I drove to a breakdown for the garage I was an apprentice for in 1970, I had already gone down a very steep hill at usual "mechanic" speed got to the customer broken down car and went to turn in the wide road to be in position, touched the brake pedal and totally nothing, I shot up a high kerb and a grassy bank! Fortunately no damage, but totally no brakes either, a pipe had split and as that brake system being old only had a single pipe from the master cylinder , so any issue resulted in total brake failure, so I drove back on the hand brake.
By the way if a pressure seal in the master cylinder, much the same in a clutch master cylinder, if you press the pedal slowly it fails, but if you smack the pedal down it has the affect of opening the seal better to give a proper reaction. I only mention this for diagnosis, not as a suggestion for continued use.
If the brake servo vacuum side fails it usually results in a hard pedal with little travel, but requiring a lot of pedal effort top stop the vehicle.

 

[Smitty03]

Hi. I currently own a 1980 Spider, purchased 20 yrs ago. I'm having an issue with it cutting out/sputtering while in gear. Out of gear it revs all the way. Mechanic did a solid verification with the tune up and injectors and checked as many grounds as possible, but issue still ongoing. He said it will be a process of elimination. So we started with replacing the plugs and wiring. Same issue. Adjusted the timing. Same. Replaced the fuel pump and filter. Same. Replaced the fuel replay switch. Same. The only thing left would be the ECU. As I search for a replacement, I'm finding its not that easy. Either its taking a chance on a "used" unit or getting my unit re-programmed through Flagship One out of NY State at $650USD. Look forward to hearing any tips from the group.

Crazy to come across this post as I have the EXACT issue for 4 years now on my 1984 Spider (I pretty much gave up on the car and it just sits now).

I also went through the process of elimination and have replaced many new parts, none of which improved the issue:
Bosch Alternator
Distributor, cap and rotor
Ignition control module
Coil
Spark plugs and wires
Fuel pump
Cold start injector
Throttle position sensor
MAF
Fuel relay
Finally, the ECU (not sure this was needed, but running out of options here!)

However, even replacing the ECU didn't resolve my issue permanently - although the car did run once for a 3 hour road trip, but eventually went back to it's old ways. I have all manuals (include Bosch fuel injection diagrams), and refer to them religiously. I have spent countless hours testing grounds of the entire circuit, fuel pressure, etc... and all check out fine to this point. Also considering installing an MSD ignition to get more spark... and yes, also had the brake loss issue, and ended up replacing the master cylinder. At some point this summer, I may get back into this and figure it out.

 

[Spiderman1980]

New Update. The brake issue was the servo. Ordered one from Auto Ricambi and all is well on this front. Been running along all summer with the black cloud hovering regarding the stutter issue, although it did happen a couple of times it was minor and we were able to move along. It's not a good feeling not knowing when it could act up again.
Yesterday, I was going to go for a ride. Turned the key, engine turned over and over but not starting. Seems as though its starving for air/fuel. I disconnected the MFM, it started up but ran rough. While running, I reconnected the MFM and off the engine went.
So the next $1000 dollar question is....Is it the MFM or the ECU? These are the only two things left to replace.
Any comments appreciated!

 

[spidermania]

Any comments appreciated!

Where does one begin, I got dizzy reading all that from the beginning. I'm left with the thoughts that range from either a crooked mechanic or doesn't know what they are doing to the car trying to tell you it's time for the scrap yard or let it be stolen and claim it on insurance.
However, I must respect your desire to get these issues resolved and therefore will not interject any negativity or anymore at least into this very precarious
situation you find yourself in.

 

[s130]

Not sure if the Spider 124 is the same but on the Strada/Ritmo 130TC Abarth (2000cc twin cam) the fuel pump is powered through an oil pressure safety switch. If this switch or wiring is faulty / intermittent then the fuel pump will either totally cut out or "jitter".

I modified our 130TC with a "Start / Run" switch. In the Start position the oil pressure switch is bypass thus apply constant power to the pump. Once the engine is up and running Run is selected as the oil pressure keeps the oil pressure closed and thus power to the pump.

The reason I made this mods is that the 130TC has two Weber/Solex DCOE/ADDHE carbs. The Solex carbs when left standing sweat off fuel from the float chambers so during starting you need the fuel pump to fill the chambers back up. But at cranking speed the oil pressure takes time to rise so the fuel pump does not start. Sometimes you can crank away for quite a while before the engine bursts into life. The Start overide removes this problem. Switch to Start, ignition on and then let the pump run for 5 to 10 seconds before attempting to turn the engine over.

 

[bugsymike]

I have only come across that scenario once back in the 1980s after fitting a clutch on an Austin Maestro, I must have dislodged the oil pressure switch wire, so it would start and die. Bit of a puzzle as it had driven in , but soon found the cause.

 

[Spiderman1980]

Update. I ordered and rec'd a new ECU from Midwest-Bayless. Great service from Matt. Unfortunately Canada Customs decided to sit on it for three weeks! Just rec'd it today. We've been having abnormal hot weather for October in Montreal so all excited to get it installed and running again. It started up first crank. Took it around the block only to have it sputter again. Such a discouraging disappointment. This time for whatever freaking reason. The tach was jumping all over the place.
The only thing left to change is the MFS. I opened it up but not sure what I'm looking at. It could be dirty. I cleaned gently it with a Q-tip. But no change. Not sure if the wear surface could be worn, but why would it sputter?
I hoped to have overcome the issue. Now, i'm just going to store it for the winter and then decide what happens next spring.