General Clutch or Gearbox?

[u33db]

Hi,

Last year i bought a 1.2 500 (well, 1.2 Ka but basically the same car) on 75k and i've had issues with the gearbox being rough to go into 2nd and also crunches when coming out of 5th in 4th.

I have changed the gearbox oil, linkage and today i have replaced the clutch fluid but still the same!

I think thats all the easy culprits dealt with so i presume the issue is more expensive - e.g clutch or gearbox.

I had no slipping so presume the it'll be the box?

Car has 16" wheels so its probably had a hard time.

Thoughts on cost to repair?

 

[rmjbn1]

Replacing the gearbox input shaft bearing got rid of the crunching gear changes on my 1.2 Panda (same gearbox). Car is quieter and gear change is much improved.

The input shaft bearing is known to wear out on these 'boxes. Here's the state of mine.

I only replaced mine because oil was leaking on to my clutch. Yours might soldier on until the next clutch change (personally I would put up with it until then), but obviously if the bearing does break apart it could do some damage to the 'box internals.

Cost-wise? The gearbox has to come off and come apart, so if it's a garage job then probably around £400? It's quite a lot of work.

If you're a fairly competent DIY mechanic, then I don't think there's anything too challenging, it just takes a lot of time. A new SKF 6204 C3 bearing was £3 (the correct FIAT replacement is quite a bit more) and the input shaft seal (FIAT part number 40004670) was also £3.

It might be worth considering replacing the clutch whilst it's all apart.

A couple of resources I found really helpful:
Mr Wild's excellent guide to replacing the input shaft bearing and seal
Williams Mobile Clutch YouTube video

 

[u33db]

Thanks for the reply!

I am fairly confident have have changed a bearing in a VXR M32 6 speed box...but i could do that in situ just by taking the end cover off. Looking at that link the box needs to come off on this one which due to other commitments right now would be a bit of an issue.

I'll have another read of that link later but I think i might go the route of a reconditoned box this time...going rate seems to be 370 which is ok and i guess another 100 for clutch and maybe 200 ish for labour so would be doable.

Reluctant to trade the car in as it has all new brakes/shock/springs and would likely end coming away with some more expensive to run...

 

[rmjbn1]

Another way to check if it's the input shaft bearing would be to listen for it rattling when in neutral, and if it stops rattling when the clutch is depressed.

Other than that, is clutch action OK? Engages properly, pedal not stiff?

 

[Baglady1990]

My box had to be sorted last summer I had that same noise when in neutral so that had to be sorted and new clutch pack service & MOT ? didn’t have much change from a grand!

I reckon with a bit more knowledge another trolly jack and maybe a few more tools I could tackle my gearbox myself when the time comes! I really don’t like paying for labour if I think I could do it myself

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I reckon with a bit more knowledge another trolly jack and maybe a few more tools I could tackle my gearbox myself when the time comes! I really don’t like paying for labour if I think I could do it myself

Yea, go for it girl! What an inspiration you are to me! the stuff you've taken on in such a short timebase and from such a basic starting point knowledge wise! I just can't wait to see what your going to take on next!

Kindest regards
Jock

 

[Baglady1990]

Yea, go for it girl! What an inspiration you are to me! the stuff you've taken on in such a short timebase and from such a basic starting point knowledge wise! I just can't wait to see what your going to take on next!

Kindest regards
Jock

Haha thank you jock ?as I have said before “who knew” I’d enjoy it and actually be good at it! If I can conquer labour intensive jobs like clutch and gearbox I’ll be so happy for obvious reasons £££

 

[rmjbn1]

My box had to be sorted last summer I had that same noise when in neutral so that had to be sorted and new clutch pack service & MOT ? didn’t have much change from a grand!

I reckon with a bit more knowledge another trolly jack and maybe a few more tools I could tackle my gearbox myself when the time comes! I really don’t like paying for labour if I think I could do it myself

Having seen what you're capable of, I'm sure you could do it! I'm certainly no mechanic; I suspect your skills are better than mine

I spent an embarrassingly long time doing mine, but then I probably spent more time cleaning things than anything else

If I had to do a clutch again on one of these gearboxes, I would certainly replace the input shaft bearing and seal as a matter of course.

It seems like one of those areas that was designed to last just about long enough and no more. Which is fair enough. I'm amazed how well built these little FIATs are in general, and the FIRE engine is an absolute gem

 

[Baglady1990]

Having seen what you're capable of, I'm sure you could do it! I'm certainly no mechanic; I suspect your skills are better than mine

I spent an embarrassingly long time doing mine, but then I probably spent more time cleaning things than anything else

If I had to do a clutch again on one of these gearboxes, I would certainly replace the input shaft bearing and seal as a matter of course.

It seems like one of those areas that was designed to last just about long enough and no more. Which is fair enough. I'm amazed how well built these little FIATs are in general, and the FIRE engine is an absolute gem

The longer you take the better! In my humble opinion more chance of getting it right and not wrong!
My garage are great but for obvious reasons they don’t take their time. And when it comes to my car ..... it pains me ? I really would like to get to a place where I could repair anything on my car or more or less!

 

[u33db]

Another way to check if it's the input shaft bearing would be to listen for it rattling when in neutral, and if it stops rattling when the clutch is depressed.

Other than that, is clutch action OK? Engages properly, pedal not stiff?

Nope, no rattling and clutch pedal seems quite light but problems like;

- 1st to 2nd - sometimes it'll go in really slick sometimes it won't.
- 2nd to 1st - car needs to be at a standstill.
- 3rd to 2nd - car needs to be below 15/20mph before you can change down
- 3rd to 4th - usually goes in slickly, but sometimes won't engage instantly
- 5th-4th - crunches...well more of a metal on metal screeching, like there's teeth missing somewhere, unless you hold the clutch down for several seconds longer before trying 4th.

I think perhaps with the high mileage and maybe some non sympathetic previous owners the synchro's have taken a battering...hence having to wait until they slow down before certain changes.

I have reread your post earlier and i might have a go at it...someone said you can leave the driveshafts and bellhousing in and simply remove the gear section. Maybe the best course of action would be to get a refurb box and swap that bit over in situ.

 

[rmjbn1]

someone said you can leave the driveshafts and bellhousing in and simply remove the gear section.

There was some discussion on this over on the Panda section here.

Including a good video (albeit with 'box off the car) found by @Pugglt Auld Jock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-R5DkY81oc

One issue might be you can't get to the input shaft seal, which is installed in the bellhousing. The seal typically gets damaged due to a failing bearing, which could then leak oil in to the bellhousing. It's unlikely to reach the clutch plate, but you never know.

There's an inspection hole in the top of the bellhousing. If an inserted finger comes out oily, this would indicate the input shaft seal is leaking, probably due to a failing bearing.

 

[u33db]

Well unbelievably;

After changing the clutch fluid yesterday and having it still crunch within the first mile i left it overnight and took it out for a long drive tonight...i've battered it 5th-4th multiple times now for 30 mins+ and no more crunching.

Very odd!

I wonder if perhaps there was some bad fluid left in the slave and leaving it overnight has allowed the new fluid to get in there and sort itself out?

I will test it again tomorrow but hopefully i've dodged a bullet and a simple fluid change has solved my problems.

Will update tomorrow...

 

[puntodeltathema]

I did wonder if your clutch was dragging, so maybe changing the fluid and (more importantly) bleeding the system has helped?

Nick

 

[rmjbn1]

Glad to hear it's better. If it comes back, I would suspect the slave cylinder, especially if there's any resistance to getting in/out of gear. Might be worth cleaning up around the slave and keeping an eye on any signs of a leak.

 

[u33db]

Thanks folks.

Been out in it again at lunch there for another 20 mins or so and got a minor crunch once when really rushing it down from 5th to 4th but that was all. Its certainly a million miles better than it was and livable with now which is a real relief!

Do the slaves have a reputation for going wrong? If so i might just pop a new one on as they seem cheap enough and looks an easy job.

One thing i did want to ask was would it be worth fiddling with the adjuster cables? I have previously replaced the 2 ball joint sockets that clip onto the gearbox...as you know they just screw into the cables so just aligned them in front of the balls then pushed them home. I don't know there'd be anything to be had by maybe unclipping them and screwing the threads up/down to tightened the shift up a bit? Guess i'd need to get the wife to move the gear lever gradually to see if one socket moves before the other and then i'd see play etc?

 

[John202020]

The slave is simple to replace, the connection between the slave and master pipe a nightmare to get apart if you even can.
When replacing leave the plastic end cap on the rod and just un clip the retainer so if you ever need in the future( like clutch replacement) you can pop back in place to hold the piston in place whilst free?

 

[rmjbn1]

Do the slaves have a reputation for going wrong?

I don't think particularly on these cars, but in general they either work fine or leak.

Your symptoms of being difficult to get in & out of certain gears sounds like it could have been the slave failing to push the clutch fork far enough to fully disengage the clutch.

Before you replaced the clutch fluid, was the level OK in the reservoir?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I don't think particularly on these cars, but in general they either work fine or leak.

Your symptoms of being difficult to get in & out of certain gears sounds like it could have been the slave failing to push the clutch fork far enough to fully disengage the clutch.

Before you replaced the clutch fluid, was the level OK in the reservoir?

I wouldn't say the clutch hydraulics are especially problematic but neither would I say they are particularly robust and long lived. My oldest boy had similar problems to yours in regard to the gear changing and I made a bit of a mess of diagnosing the problem. I convinced my self it was the master cylinder at fault - which on a 2012 Punto 1.4 Easy is not an easy item to change - but it made no difference. The slave wasn't leaking and appeared to bleed well so I paid our local Fiat Indy to put a new clutch in her. Very little changed with still a lousy pedal and difficulty selecting gears! Feeling completely gutted I fitted a new slave cylinder which completely cured the problem and was almost certainly the problem right from the get go! I console myself that the clutch was more than three quarters worn when stripped out so would likely have needed replaced in a year or so and the car's a "keeper" but I'm very disappointed in myself for the poor diagnosis and that the master cylinder was probably absolutely fine and I wasted my money, and quite a lot of blood, trying to change it. (the later model Punto clutch master cylinder comes out internally past the pedals just like the earlier car but is MUCH more difficult to do as the pedal box itself has to be partially dismantled to withdraw the cylinder, unlike the earlier car -Grande Punto etc.) I spent ages lacerating my knuckles unable to understand why I couldn't get it out when the Haynes manual made it sound quite easy. In the end I reassembled it sufficiently to allow me to drive it round to Kenny's garage and handed it over to them. It took his foreman/"ace mechanic" the best part of a day to do it! When I picked the car up at closing time I spoke with him and he said he'd not done one of the later cars before and didn't want to have to do another one! He had, I think, even more scars on his hands than I had!

We also had troubles with our Panda - 2010 1.2 - which genuinely needed a new clutch but the slave had been "sqeaking" when operated for some time and was found to be leaking during the clutch job so was replaced.

 

[puntodeltathema]

Sounds like you've identified the issue as hydraulic (and basically fixed it) so I'd probably not rush to fiddle with the cables.

I don't think the slaves are particularly problematic. It will probably leak to let you know if it needs changing No harm in giving it another bleed however if you retain any doubts (at least as a first step).

Nick

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Sounds like you've identified the issue as hydraulic (and basically fixed it) so I'd probably not rush to fiddle with the cables.

I don't think the slaves are particularly problematic. It will probably leak to let you know if it needs changing No harm in giving it another bleed however if you retain any doubts (at least as a first step).

Nick

Totally agree. Give it a wee bit of time and see if it settles down. You might end up with a problem you don't actually have if you start fiddling with the cables?

The Punto was bled out comprehensively when I fitted the slave and I got a good pedal. For no especially good reason, just that I had spare fluid, I decided to give it another bleed after about 3 or 4 days and a wee bit more air came out and a the pedal action noticeably improved again. So performing another bleed after a wee bit of running around could be good? In fact I've found this before with hydraulics, especially clutches.