Technical Brake pipes with stuck flare nuts

[DaveMcT]

I want to change my brake hoses, but every one of the (male) flare nuts has welded itself to the alloy brake pipes.

I can deal with the short metal pipes on the swing arm by using a braided hose from chassis to brake caliper. However the chassis pipes are just as bad.

How do folks deal with this? The aluminium pipes are hard to flare (and I dont have a tool) so making a new flare is not an option. Probably?

I really do not want to fit new pipes right back to the brake caliper. Any suggestions on how to free off those pesky captive fittings?


BTW the flare nuts are imperial flare spanner size. I dont know what thread size they are.

 

[SimonJB]

Heat the nut (and pipe) with a blowlamp, then quench with cold water. Repeat as necessary.

Wear eye protection!

When re-assembling, you could use copper-ease to avoid further seizure, but keep it out of the brake fluid.....

 

[DaveMcT]

Great thanks.


I sort of thought as much but didnt want to screw it up if there were other methods. Making new flares on the OEM brake pipes would be a nightmare and running new ones end to end only a bit less aggravating. Thanks again.

 

[perelaar]

I wouldn't bother with trying to save the brake pipes. Take them off and have your local motor factor make you a new one.
Did just that on my previous car; the motor factor cut the new pipes to lenth (based on the old ones) and flared the ends; I bent them in shape and bolted them on.

 

[chris3234]

I thiy you'd be better biteing the bullet and getting a garage to make up copper brake lines for you to replace the old ones

 

[DaveMcT]

I thiy you'd be better biteing the bullet and getting a garage to make up copper brake lines for you to replace the old ones

To be fair, that's my concern. But superficially they all look great. One of the short metal pipes on the swing arm got mangled so I was uber careful with the chassis pipe. the issue is literally under the flare nuts and nowhere else.

The pipes both left and right are the ones that go right back to the master cylinder. There are no signs of trouble except the stuck female connecting nuts (or whatever they are called).

I will do a test on the undamaged end of the short axle pipe. If that frees and looks good I'll do the same on the chassis. But otherwise its got to be new copper pipes end to end.


I can get 25ft of copper pipe complete with all the necessary fittings for under £15. A pipe flaring and bending kit is only £20 so going DIY makes the most sense. That way, the pipes can be neatly fitted under the car.

 

[DaveMcT]

I thiy you'd be better biteing the bullet and getting a garage to make up copper brake lines for you to replace the old ones

To be fair that's my concern. But superficially they all look great. One of the short metal pipes on the swing arm got mangled so I was uber careful with the chassis pipe. the issue is literally under the flare nuts and nowhere else.

The pipes both left and right are the ones that go right back to the master cylinder. There are no signs of trouble except the stuck female connecting nuts (or whatever they are called).

I will do a test on the undamaged end of the short axle pipe. If that frees and looks good I'll do the same on the chassis. But otherwise its got to be new copper pipes end to end.

But it's a big hassle job and what's the betting the underfloor trunking screws to be mostly seized solid and shear off.

 

[tonyn]

Dave,
eBay item number:
401579125946
I thought this may be of interest to you.


Tony

 

[DaveMcT]

Me again.


Just talked to HEL Performance - their factory is just down the road from me.

Up to 1m of braided brake line costs £20. Additional line costs £5 per metre. I'm looking at the possibility of running a continuous like from master cylinder to brake with a banjo at the brake caliper. The various brackets on the swing arm become redundant but the bend radii wont be as tight as the copper pipes with a bending tool.

All up cost could be £40 per side. I'm looking at £20 per side anyway so (subject to it actually fitting into the spaces available) might be an option.

 

[DaveMcT]

Dave,
eBay item number:
401579125946
I thought this may be of interest to you.

Tony

Thanks Tony.

I've just seen a similar one for £20 that had mechanical pipe bender, flare tool and cutter for £20. But when you add the costs of new hoses and copper tube, the option of end to end braided hose looks like an attractive solution.


Investigations needed so it's all possible.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi Dave. I suppose the most obvious question to ask is; are you doing this as a one off or might you be doing it again in the future?

Having wasted many hours over the years struggling with seized brake tube nuts and the stress of worrying about what to do when the damned thing rounds off or the pipe snaps, I would say that unless it comes away relatively easily don't waste your time piddling about with it. If it's that corroded it would probably benefit from being renewed anyway so just cut it off! If you are trying to save a flex hose but renew the metal pipe to it then if you cut the metal pipe where it enters the tube nut BEFORE you round off the tube nut then you can get a small single hex socket on it and it may well come undone. If not it probably all needs renewed anyway! I found it quite liberating when I was able to take this approach and stop worrying about trying to save hopelessly corroded pipes, nuts and fixings which I knew in my heart I would probably be returning to in 6 months or so! Trying to weld up heavily corroded exhausts comes into the same category! By the way, I personally would not take a blow torch anywhere near flex hoses and wheel cylinders. I've seen it done and gotten away with, but not for me, too much rubber which doesn't like getting very hot.

So, back to the original question, A one off or repeat performance? If a one off, cut the old pipes off and take the whole lot down to your local garage or auto factors and get them to make up new ones, not forgetting you'll need to know what type of flare has to be formed on each end - there's a choice of two - but you can tell that by looking at the flex hose/brake cylinder/etc that the connection is to be made to. Remember too that you need a wee bit of extra length to account for that lost inside the old tube nuts. Then all you've got to do is enjoy yourself bending it all to shape and not cross threading the nuts!

On the other hand if you are likely to be doing this again in the future and especially if that might be more than once then I don't think there's any doubt that buying your own flaring tool is the way to go. You can buy models that are bench mounted, most of the fully professional ones are like this. (although Sykes Pickavant do a thing called the Flaremaster2, which I covet dearly, which can be used on the vehicle - too expensive for me just now though, but I can dream!). If you are working, as I do, in your drive on axle stands then having a tool which can be used on the vehicle is invaluable as it lets you flare the end of a pipe which is still attached by its other end to the vehicle.

So, back in the '60's as I was completing my City and Guilds etc and starting to work in the trade, I bought myself this:





I can't remember the make but I see a very similar tool is still being sold at a very reasonable price. It makes a very nice flare when used with care in both copper and Kunifer tubing. It is not happy with steel tubing although I have done a couple of flares in steel when joining to an original pipe on the car. I think it woild probably fail if you did a lot of steel stuff!

more recently I've become interrested in vintage horticultural machines and old motor cycles. I needed to tackle a 1/4" fuel pipe on a cultivator. The tool above only does 3/16" (4.75mm) dia tubes so I bought this:



Which is supposed to do from 3/16" up to 1/2" suffice to say I ended up doing it with olives! It does do a nice job of flaring brake pipe though with the one comment that it leaves marks where it grips the outside of the pipe because the jaws are serrated.



This is not a problem on copper or copper alloy pipes because they do not have an anti corrosion coating but would be a problem on steel where it would destroy the coating. However I don't think this tool would flare steel anyway. So I now have two tools which I can play with but by far and away my favorite is that old friend I bought all those years ago. He and I have spent many happy hours cursing away, with skinned knuckles, freezing our nether regions off under a wide variety of vehicles over the years. I keep the fancy modern one as an emergency spare "just in case". - There seem to be modern versions of my old "pal" still available. People need to consider also that, the majority of these cheaper tools are not suitable for the original steel tubing used by the manufacturers but do a decent enough job on copper.

All you now need is a roll of copper or Kunifer tubing. The copper is a little cheaper to buy and being softer, easier to work so start with it. and some male and female tube nuts. I see an offer on eBay right now for 25ft of copper pipe, 10 male and 10 female tube nuts for nearly £10 and unless you are doing front to rear pipes a 10ft roll will last a long time. Prices vary widely so always do a good search before buying. If you're really obsessed with corrosion you can even buy brass nuts! I did try them but they cost more and are not so widely available so I just use steel ones now. Here are a selection of fixings. The ones on the left are in brass. The middle ones are imperial threaded in steel and the ones on the right are metric threaded in steel. In front of them are a couple of hastily produced examples of flares the one on the left is a double flare done with the newer tool and the one on the right is a single flare done with my faithful old friend!



Just behind them all is the tube of silicon grease which I use to lube the die face. The end of the tube needs to be nice and square with the outer edges chamfered to reduce wear on the die. A tube cutter does the job nicely. Just to finish here's a close up of the flares for your delectation!



Actually the double flare could be a little nicer but I was being hurried by Mrs Jock who wanted me to help changing the beds as my daughter and her family are arriving for a long weekend with us tonight. Just goes to demonstrate you need to take your time setting these tools up carefully to get the best results. Although, looking at it, I'm sure it would seal just fine! Another advantage of using the copper is that because it's soft even if you don't make an absolutely perfect flare it will deform to fit as you tighten the tube nut so invariably you still get a nice tight dry seal.

 

[portland_bill]

BTW the flare nuts are imperial flare spanner size. I dont know what thread size they are.

They are probably 11mm, very close to 7/16", which is why they might appear to be imperial.

Mine were trying to twist the pipe. A liberal soaking with Plus Gas and gentle tweaking back and forth released them.
Sometimes it is possible to make up short lengths and use a connector, but the pipe left on the car needs to be cut, and flared in situ. Most DIY flaring tools seem to state copper and brass pipes only. For steel pipes, the professional flaring tools are needed, which generally don't fit under the car, and cost a hundred pounds or more.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

They are probably 11mm, very close to 7/16", which is why they might appear to be imperial.

Mine were trying to twist the pipe. A liberal soaking with Plus Gas and gentle tweaking back and forth released them.
Sometimes it is possible to make up short lengths and use a connector, but the pipe left on the car needs to be cut, and flared in situ. Most DIY flaring tools seem to state copper and brass pipes only. For steel pipes, the professional flaring tools are needed, which generally don't fit under the car, and cost a hundred pounds or more.

Just checked my brake parts box. All the metric male nuts take an 11mm spanner, females are 13mm. I have come across 10mm males a couple of times in the past but haven't seen one for a while now - my Datsun 120Y had them if I remember - maybe a "Japanese" thing?

Aye PB, Plus Gas all the way for me too! Although one of the friends I made in the US swears by PB Blaster - nothing to do with you though? (I've never tried it but see it's on Amazon at roughly the same price as Plus Gas so I'm going to buy some just to compare)

The Flaremaster 2 (which has a blue handle. The original had a black handle and a weaker bridge piece I think) is a quality piece of kit which I understand can tackle the steel pipes and be used, hand held, on the car. The forcing screw is hydraulic too which will mean much less effort needed on the handle when using, a big plus when in an awkward situation under the vehicle. The basic kit seems to be available at around £80.00p but, alas, Mrs Jock's love of foreign holidays probably means I'll never own one.

 

[DaveMcT]

Hi Folks some great information there.

Indeed the old pipes while looking fine are anything but. Every single one of the female fittings is seized hard onto the pipe. They are also quite close to the pipe bend, so even if I can get them loose, examining the state of the corroded aluminium tube will be hit and miss. It's the classic dissimilar metals issue.

Pricing up the parts I'm looking at £40 to £50 for four new rear hoses plus the swing arm bundy pipes. I then have to replace the ABS to back end bundy pipes as making a new flare and adding a joint looks questionable (aluminium can split).



Thinking further I contacted HEL (based near Exeter) to ask about using braided hose all the way from ABS to back wheels.

Their costs are £20 for up to 1m hose including end fittings. Every metre above that is £5. There are two options -

(1) Continuous line from ABS to rear caliper with grommet at rear suspension pivot points (so nothing rubs).

(2) Insert a male/female joint at the bracket by rear swing arm pivot. They sell the same type of fitting used on the Fiat pipes.

(3) I lied - there is a hybrid option with new Bundy to the rear pivot bracket and a HEL braided to the caliper.
​

Option 1 costs would be under £40 per side. Option 2 is about £50 a side. I'll know better when it's fully measured up. Cost is more than replicating the OEM setup but not a great deal.

 

[portland_bill]

The Flaremaster 2 (which has a blue handle. The original had a black handle and a weaker bridge piece I think) is a quality piece of kit which I understand can tackle the steel pipes and be used, hand held, on the car. The forcing screw is hydraulic too which will mean much less effort needed on the handle when using, a big plus when in an awkward situation under the vehicle. The basic kit seems to be available at around £80.00p but, alas, Mrs Jock's love of foreign holidays probably means I'll never own one.

A lot of pennies for an 'occasional' use.

Surely, foreign travel means a few miles to cross the border into England. Just a day out.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

A lot of pennies for an 'occasional' use.

Surely, foreign travel means a few miles to cross the border into England. Just a day out.

Oh yes PB, a completely unjustifiable expense. Doesn't mean I don't still want one though!

My college days (no fancy University for me) were spent in West London where I also learnt my trade. Later moved further west (Hants) before we finally saw the light and moved back north! We still have many friends from those days and see them at least once a year for "lively" reunions! Daughter and Mrs Jock's sister live down south too. So, although born and bred Scottish, we feel more "British". You really need to put us overseas before we feel "foreign". However just wait till Brexit really bites (l really feel we are still in limbo land just now) and gives our Nicola the leverage she needs to take us independent! Then a visit to Blackpool will seem quite exotic!

 

[portland_bill]

Feeling guilty about taking the thread sideways, but never really understood the independence thing. Surely, becoming a separate country means not in the EU, as you'd need to apply, go through the financial checks, etc., wait a couple of years. Then a border crossing onto England, passports, maybe visas. What happens to all Scottish living elsewhere, as their UK passport becomes invalid, all those in the rest of the UK become illegal aliens, marriages, kids, etc., bring complications. All English living in Scotland would need visas, work and residency permits. And a new currency, passport office, driving licences. Plus lots more I imagine.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

At the risk of contributing to the subversion of the thread, may I say that I'm not really a very political animal PB but: I feel that Brexit may well, unfortunately, have a kind of "ricochet" effect on Scottish independence. You might be aware that, although there was substantial support to leave, the majority vote in Scotland was actually to stay in the EU and it rankles even me when people, and especially politicians, come on the news programmes and talk about "the will of people" having voted to leave! - Actually, no, only slightly more than half the entire UK population did! A recipe for unrest? - Whilst I find this just a wee niggle - I have always been of the opinion that you are better to be a part of something and try to change it from within if you don't like every aspect (and there are many good aspects which don't need changed)) I think it is helping to stoke the fires for independence. Personally I would be very sad to see the union broken up and, as you point out, I think there would be many unsatisfactory aspects to it. My, totally unscientific, gut feeling is that there is still a very slim majority for staying in the union and the fact that many ordinary people are thoroughly sick and fed up with politicians and referendums means there is little appetite for it just now. It seems to me that Brexit, once it is fully in place and people are experiencing the travel problems (I suspect immigration at Heathrow as it is now will seem a picnic!) and disruption to work with some people loosing their jobs and others unable to source labour for unpopular work and import/export changes to say nothing of the financial knock on? may just be enough for an element of, rightly or wrongly, "the English caused all this, let's go for independence!" I just think it's going to open the door for further upset and unrest whichever way things go. I truly wish the referendums (or is it referenda in the plural?) both for independence and Brexit, had never been called (can't help feeling the outcome surprised the politicians of the day too as I recon many thought it was going to be a vote to stay in!)

Why do I now feel as I do on Guy Fawkes night - as you do after you've just lit the touch paper on a particularly large rocket? Better retire quickly - or should that be, run away and hide?

 

[DaveMcT]

Brexit would be fine if UK government was not trying to leave but not leave all at the same time. Barnier is an annoying Smart Alec, but at least he's consistent. The UK side have no vision either to say "Sod the referendum we are staying" or "Sod the EU we are leaving". They don't know what they want. They make the appeasement of Chamberlain in 1939 look positively aggressive.



Back to the story - For the amount of use I'd have for it, a professional spec flare tool is just a waste. That's of course assuming the low cost stuff does the job (buy cheap buy twice, etc).

An update -

I've freed off the stuck male flare nuts on the underfloor pipe ends. As someone said - try a little heat. So I did and they were loose. The plastic coating peeled back with some oxydation dust underneath but the metal is fine. Some copper paste and self amalgamating tape will keep the weather out. When they do need replacing I'll use braided hose end to end. The first metre including fittings is £20 then it's £5 per metre after that. Not silly money.

So for now, it will be a braided hose on each side from the swing arm pivot to brake caliper. The female fitting with clip attachment is as used by Fiat so no fancy mods needed. Cost of two custom made braided lines is the same as the four ordinary hoses so it's a no brainer really.

Pix to follow.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Glad to see you've got a satisfactory resolution. There's nearly always more than one way to "skin a cat" - where did that saying come from? - and at the end of the day if it's safe and economic you can't ask for much more.
All the best.
Jock