Technical 100hp timing woes

[MrMagoo]

I used 4 barbecue skewers to align the pistons and a 3/8 short extension to lock the cams. But, if in any doubt, do it properly.

 

[DaveMcT]

It claims to be for a 1.4 16v and gives list of engine codes it does fit.

it doesn't have the cam locking tools for the 100hp panda engine , the subject of this thread.

Thanks. That's exactly why I asked the question. The seller has got the title wrong so what's the chance the engine code listing is also wrong?

 

[JustApanda]

Is the water pump seized? Is that why cam belt broke?

No the belt was very old by the looks of it and the teeth sheered off. The waterpump was very crusty but still spun freely...

I said earlier. You need four equal length dowels. Drop one down each spark plug hole. The engine is at 50% stroke when the dowel tops are level.

You also need the correct cam locking tool/pin. If it is loose the cam will not be correctly set.

Yes I used long equal length straws for this... so if there is the slightest of wiggle room the timing will be out?

 

[jackwhoo]

No the belt was very old by the looks of it and the teeth sheered off. The waterpump was very crusty but still spun freely...




Yes I used long equal length straws for this... so if there is the slightest of wiggle room the timing will be out?

This is a wierd one , four straws should have been close enough to get timing so you can rotate crank by hand.

Sorry for more questions but

Are you trying to turn crank with spark plugs out?

When turning does crank suddenly come against a solid stop ?

If you make a little mark on crankshaft with pistons mid stroke , does the crank turn the same amount clockwise and anticlockwise before stopping?

If you set pistons mid stroke, remove belt can you rotate cam sprocket a full 360 degrees no problem?

Has something fallen into a cylinder while plugs out? Don't laugh it happens .

 

[JustApanda]

This is a wierd one , four straws should have been close enough to get timing so you can rotate crank by hand.

Sorry for more questions but

1. Are you trying to turn crank with spark plugs out?

2. When turning does crank suddenly come against a solid stop ?

3. If you make a little mark on crankshaft with pistons mid stroke , does the crank turn the same amount clockwise and anticlockwise before stopping?

4. If you set pistons mid stroke, remove belt can you rotate cam sprocket a full 360 degrees no problem?

5. Has something fallen into a cylinder while plugs out? Don't laugh it happens .

Edited your post to make answering the questions easier.


1. Yes the plugs are out.

2. Yes it feels like a thud not a squishy feeling as it was explained i should feel if plugs were in.

3. I didn’t measure this but will give it a go.

4. I vaguely remember being able to do this. Its been a while that car has been sitting in this state of reassembly. I assembled everything and ran out of time to work on it then shut downs. Ive only recently been able to give the car some attention. Ill try this tomorrow while I’m off.

5. No nothing in there lol.
Apart from checking 3 and 4 again. Im guessing i should pull the cam box off again to check if one of the tappets didn’t misalign when i put it on in the first place...

 

[jackwhoo]

Well done sticking with this.

Yes to removing cam box again after other checks that is good idea.

With cam box off all valves should be closed so go crazy and see if you can rotate crank 360 degrees with cam box off.

 

[DaveMcT]

You have a sudden stop so there's a very good chance it's valves and piston hitting due to incorrect timing. This is exactly why its so important to turn the engine carefully with the new belt. Well done for doing that.

If the old belt had lost teeth, there is a strong risk that you already have damaged valves. With the cam box removed, the crank should turn easily as all valves should be closed. Check that every valve is at the same height. Any that sit low are bent.

The best tool for setting the pistons at 1/2 stroke is four wooden dowels that fit loosely down the spark plug holes but don't fall sideways. They need to be long enough that the tops are easy to sight along from one end.

PS Bent valves will usually not cause the crank to stop as they have already been banged out of the way. A sudden stop with a new belt just means you need to get the timing right.

 

[JustApanda]

SUCCESS!!!

Finally had time to have a look at what I didn’t do right. Went back to the beginning. Undid everything and reset the bottom on the right stroke. It seems I was one stroke off so instead of being at intake mdc on one was intake mdc on 4.....

Putting the belt on is a pain and I now have a few extra scrapes to remember this process by[emoji23]



It seems im one tooth off after a full turning of the engine...

Whats the best way to make sure the timing is hundreds? Take belt off and put on until its perfect? Or is there another way?

 

[jackwhoo]

SUCCESS!!!

Finally had time to have a look at what I didn’t do right. Went back to the beginning. Undid everything and reset the bottom on the right stroke. It seems I was one stroke off so instead of being at intake mdc on one was intake mdc on 4.....

Putting the belt on is a pain and I now have a few extra scrapes to remember this process by[emoji23]

View attachment 210136

It seems im one tooth off after a full turning of the engine...

Whats the best way to make sure the timing is hundreds? Take belt off and put on until its perfect? Or is there another way?

That would not have caused engine to not rotate but hey don't worry about it now it's turning.

Yes take the belt off and refit it then check alignment again.

One tooth out is not good enough I'm afraid.

You have to rotate crank two revolutions before checking cam timing.
Because cam only rotated once for two crank rotations.

 

[JustApanda]

That would not have caused engine to not rotate but hey don't worry about it now it's turning.

Yes take the belt off and refit it then check alignment again.

One tooth out is not good enough I'm afraid.

You have to rotate crank two revolutions before checking cam timing.
Because cam only rotated once for two crank rotations.

Ah ok, thought as much... going to be a tricky day next time...

I rotated so the cam timing mark I made a full rotation.

I read somewhere that you can undo the cam sprocket bolt and that will help with the slack on the belt? Is that a good way of going about it? Or is the cam sprocket keyed to the cams?

 

[jackwhoo]

Ah ok, thought as much... going to be a tricky day next time...

I rotated so the cam timing mark I made a full rotation.

I read somewhere that you can undo the cam sprocket bolt and that will help with the slack on the belt? Is that a good way of going about it? Or is the cam sprocket keyed to the cams?

Do not undo your cam sprocket bolt unless you have the correct locking tool set, the cam sprocket is not keyed to the camshaft on your engine.

 

[jackwhoo]

If you have strong fingers you maybe able to wiggle the belt off the cam sprocket without loosening the tensioner.

Putting talcum powder(baby powder) on the sprocket and belt will help you wiggle it back ok when you have adjust position of sprocket .

Always do the two crank rotations and check marks after adjusting belt.

Must say well done to you for sticking with this job.

Jack

 

[JustApanda]

If you have strong fingers you maybe able to wiggle the belt off the cam sprocket without loosening the tensioner.

Putting talcum powder(baby powder) on the sprocket and belt will help you wiggle it back ok when you have adjust position of sprocket .

Always do the two crank rotations and check marks after adjusting belt.

Must say well done to you for sticking with this job.

Jack

Awesome! Thanx jack! Ill give the baby powder trick a try!!

 

[Taffyduck]

where in the country are you.? I have the tools.

 

[DaveMcT]

The Fuzz Townsend method is by far the easiest BUT you can't replace the water pump and tensioner.

 

[jrkitching]

The Fuzz Townsend method is by far the easiest BUT you can't replace the water pump and tensioner.

It will get you very close, but it won't be perfect. The issue is belt tension/stretch; manufacturing tolerances mean there will be slight differences between individual belts.

Having an unkeyed sprocket means the timing can be adjusted to the finest of tolerances, whatever the final length of the belt after it's been tensioned, but you absolutely cannot achieve this without a good quality set of locking tools.

 

[DaveMcT]

It will get you very close, but it won't be perfect. The issue is belt tension/stretch; manufacturing tolerances mean there will be slight differences between individual belts.

Having an unkeyed sprocket means the timing can be adjusted to the finest of tolerances, whatever the final length of the belt after it's been tensioned, but you absolutely cannot achieve this without a good quality set of locking tools.

I would want a new water pump and tensioner so not attempt the job without the correct tools. Finding them is more of an issue. A quick search on eBay shows up tools for the VVT 1.4 and for 8V but whether that fits a basic 16V is anyone's guess.

For a basic belt swap, I would consider the Fuzz method because belts wear on the teeth more than by stretching. Any lag created by worn teeth at one pulley will be the same at the next pulley. My failed belt lost a load of teeth but they were all cracking at the roots. The tension before removing alowed the correct 90 degree turn along the longest straight run.

 

[jackwhoo]

Awesome! Thanx jack! Ill give the baby powder trick a try!!

Re read thread.

a thought before you take much apart again.

Set crank in correct position and check cam locking slot after removing plug in head.

If cam locking slot not in correct position you definitely need to readjust it.

I'm thinking the marks you made your self are on cam pulley and cam box when locking slot is in centre of window? Is that correct?

Jack

 

[JustApanda]

Re read thread.

a thought before you take much apart again.

Set crank in correct position and check cam locking slot after removing plug in head.

If cam locking slot not in correct position you definitely need to readjust it.

I'm thinking the marks you made your self are on cam pulley and cam box when locking slot is in centre of window? Is that correct?

Jack

Yes the marks were made when the cam was “locked”

I would want a new water pump and tensioner so not attempt the job without the correct tools. Finding them is more of an issue. A quick search on eBay shows up tools for the VVT 1.4 and for 8V but whether that fits a basic 16V is anyone's guess.

For a basic belt swap, I would consider the Fuzz method because belts wear on the teeth more than by stretching. Any lag created by worn teeth at one pulley will be the same at the next pulley. My failed belt lost a load of teeth but they were all cracking at the roots. The tension before removing alowed the correct 90 degree turn along the longest straight run.

Both the tensioner and waterpump are new here...

where in the country are you.? I have the tools.

Im in Cape Town, South Africa

 

[JustApanda]

Managed to get the car back together for the most part today. Does anyone here have a diagram of how the aux belt is supposed to go on? Searched the for a guide but cant seem to find one.

Anything i should look out for on first start?