Technical Fiat Panda Clutch Woes

[eddyweird]

Good call, just ran out and checked.
Took the mat out but still have the same issue.
However there is news! It will go into some gears, not 1st, but grudgenly into 2nd, think I also got 3rd or 4th.
Not grinding in but a stiff awkward in, again pumping the clutch pedal no help.

 

[koalar]

Are you sure it fine with the engine off

If there's a clutch faulty there's usually a grinding noise, and reverse impossible to select

Could be intermittent and just happed to work the first time you tried it

 

[eddyweird]

Checked again, yes its fine with the engine off and the clutch depressed, but also fine with the clutch not pressed.

 

[koalar]

Only interested in reverse

Engine on, wheels stationary

Any grinding as it goes in, if it does not go in, if you push a little harder (don't go silly) is there any noise or vibration from the lever

 

[eddyweird]

Engine on wheels stationary yes it grinds trying to go into reverse tried a few times. Didn't push it any further to see if the lever vibrates.

 

[koalar]

Great we have confirmed we have clutch drag

If you select first with the engine off, start the engine and slowly release the clutch pedal, if it starts to bit in the normal position, it's unlikely to be a hydraulic problem

You can double check by measuring the throw at the slave

Assuming this is correct, I suspect the pressure plate or release bearing


How many miles has the clutch done

 

[eddyweird]

Okay, quickly just tried the above. Clutch bite high and cannot get it out of first until I swtched the engine off.
Car has done approx 75k.

 

[koalar]

Shame

We know the problem is clutch drag

Sound to me like it not going to be a quick simple fix

Do you do your own repairs or use a garage

Clutch bite point high

Unlikely to be a bleed issue
Unlikely to be fluid passing a seal

Pedal not sticking down

Unlikely to be sticking master or slave

No fluid loss

Again unlikely to master

Clutches typically fail between 60-80k if used around town, less if hilly and almost indefinitely if used mainly on motorways

I am out of suggestions except to check the throw

Maybe @irc @portland_bill has some other checks

But it looking like a gearbox off job to me

 

[irc]

Worth closely checking the quick release connector for signs of dampness - they can cause some strange effects, but not a "usual" fault. (Usually they just leak until the fluid gets too low for the clutch to work, but I have had a 500 which sucked air in, but only seeped small amounts of fluid, leading to clutch bite point moving up and down.)

Does sound like thrust bearing or pressure plate failure to me. Outside possibility of clutch fork failure, but that's pretty rare, and all 3 need the gearbox off anyway.

If doing the clutch, check the input shaft for side-to-side movement and if there is any, change the input shaft seal and the bearing, or you'll end up doing it all again when the seal fails in as little as 200 miles and ruins the brand new clutch plate. They keep on working for years with a worn bearing, but fail quickly when disturbed (e.g. by changing the clutch)

 

[eddyweird]

Thanks all, not the news I wanted to hear "it looking like a gearbox off job to me" but it was always at the back of ones mind.

Did measure the slave cylinder stroke/travel tonight, approx 15mm, so in the same ball park.

Do I do my own repairs? Best way to describe me Koalar is a tinkerer, and after watching a few youtube vids and one by a member of this the forum showing his struggles, I dont think I'll undertake this job.
I know there is great support on this forum by you guys, but on your back on a drive, car on axle stands, by yourself, in winter probably over xmas, think I'll pass on this one.

But before I hand over my hard earned cash I will do a few more checks that have been suggested in the replies.

Operation weekend plan B:

Check the quick release connector for leaks.
Bleed the slave cylinder.

Any other checks/suggestions other than "make an appointment with the bank manager" or "sell the car" are welcome.

 

[koalar]

I payed just over £40 for a clutch kit

I would pay a little extra on the next one around £60

It's not that difficult, but is a maul on a drive, especially on your own, not too bad if there's two of you, in fact it's mostly just undoing bolts

Does require a breakers bar, torque wrench and good selection of sockets and extensions

Strong rope and wood to bridge across the wings

Garage is probably going to charge around 4 hours labour, on a ramp with a transmission jack in reality it shouldn't take more than 2.5 hours

Going rate a couple of years ago at an independent garage was around the £350 mark

 

[eddyweird]

Well operation plan B the weekend has come and gone, but alas to no avail.

The quick release connector was bone dry and in remarkably good condition to the point where I think has it been changed?
Checking with previous owner.

Bled the slave cylinder that didn't change anything.

For what it's worth Koalar I think the clutch bite point is the same as it was before all this.

The next gripping chapter is a 4 mile drive to a garage in 1st or 2nd, shall we add some spice and do it during the school run?

Will let you know how that goes.

 

[koalar]

The quick release connector was bone dry

For what it's worth Koalar I think the clutch bite point is the same as it was before all this.

Will let you know how that goes.

Shame on the QC it was a long shot
Bit point confirms is not a bent lever or hydraulic

Gearbox off am afraid

 

[MrMagoo]

Pipe looks kinked. Are they plastic or rubber?

 

[koalar]

Pipe looks kinked. Are they plastic or rubber?

I don't see any pictures of the pipes

There's a photo of the clutch slave

Part of the wiring harness also in the photo is covered in a foam wrap, this on my car goes under the airbox, and protects the wire from chafing

 

[DaveMcT]

I did my clutch with a 3x2 timber over the engine in line with crank centerline. I used smaller battens in the wing drip gutters to avoid damage. The gearbox was supported on a jack with a ratchet going all around, against the box end of the bell housing. It allows you to wriggle the box off the engine without risk of it falling off the jack. To lower it use a helper or alternately take weight on the jack and the strap to gradually lower it down.

The big benefit is putting the box back. The strap helps you get (and keep) the box aligned radially and angular so the splines slip into place. I found the strap allowed fine adjustments otherwise impossible with such an awkward heavy item as a gearbox.

Ideally replace the gearbox input shaft oil seal. Every one of mine (three now) have been hard and ready to fail.

 

[timmycm850]

Yes I would agree clutch fingers have failed and the release bearing has gone through them or the release bearing has collapsed.

Take care. Take time and do it safely.

Tim

 

[DaveMcT]

Pandas with a worn clutch develop a heavy action (angle of pressure plate fingers gets out of range). Eventually the fingers will break and potentially cause other damage. The pedal action gets heavy and it feel like stuff is getting bent rather than moved.

The master cylinder can cause the clutch to fail to open properly. The seals wear and suck in air. If bleeding the clutch improves the action but it goes bad again, you have a worn master cylinder. Fiat parts are silly money but you can buy a new master for about £60. Replacement seals are not available. Panda, 500 and Ford Ka all use the same parts.