Technical 1.3 Diesel - P0089 and the fuel filter of doom...

[Matt Quinn]

Personally I wouldn't drain and refit old filter as a test, as it may disturb some muck which you do not want going through the rest of the system.
It was more to inspect what muck came out to see if clue to the problem.

...Fair point. I'm disinclined to do the job twice anyway.

 

[jackwhoo]

It has already been suggested that the electrical component at bottom of fuel filter is a combined water sensor / fuel temperature sensor .

The electronic (not float) water sensors usually have 3 wires.

I haven't seen a low pressure side fuel pressure sensor on any manufacturer ,other than the mechanical type fitted to vehicles (agricultural/plant/ford transit) that don't have an in tank lift pump. The mechanical type indicate when the filter blocked enough to cause excessive suction between the high pressure pump and filter.

 

[Matt Quinn]

Just for the record:

Is your new lift pump pushing fuel up to filter?
Is it pushing fuel through filter?

Disconnecting pipe from filter to high pressure pump and triggering lift pump should see fuel emerge from open filter port.

Yes to both questions... pulled each connector off in turn and there is fuel getting through.

It has already been suggested that the electrical component at bottom of fuel filter is a combined water sensor / fuel temperature sensor .

It has... and I'm inclined to form the opinion that is correct; however Autodoc - and a few other places seem to suggest it's a pressure sensor; so the question needs to be asked. - Particularly given the total lack of canonical information.

From the photo above, it looks as if there are four wires going to it with a possible position (or perhaps just hidden) fifth. - I've found a component; 77363659 (ECW-FT-001) which seems to tally with this. - And is indeed a water/temperature sensor.

As my code reader will only return the generic code; can anyone suggest a cheap-ish reader that will read the data on these cars more comprehensively (i.e. give me pressure numbers)? Preferably a standalone item.

​

 

[jackwhoo]

Hi,

4 wires which is why I was hinting at agreeing with suggestion that it is is a combined water/temperature sensor.

multi ecu scan software an adapter and laptop is very good for fiat. Not stand alone but most likely best and cheapest(if you have a laptop that works with mes)

Best wishes
Jack

 

[Matt Quinn]

...No windows laptop available nor iphone/ipad. I simply need something that will read the pressure data (as opposed to just throw up a code) which the (now quite old) Vgate device I have will - for VWs! - This Qubo being the first Fiat I've owned.

 

[bugsymike]

...No windows laptop available nor iphone/ipad. I simply need something that will read the pressure data (as opposed to just throw up a code) which the (now quite old) Vgate device I have will - for VWs! - This Qubo being the first Fiat I've owned.

One I picked up new some years ago for £80 at Cash Convertors, pure luck I have never got a bargain like that from them since, was a Launch Creader 7+ at the time they were trending ? around £200, I see similar is around £105 on eBay, check that they do what you want as it doesn't do everything.
At the time I was working on a C3 Picasso and it gave loads of gen on ash in particulate filter, pressure sensor, Eloys fluid level, DPF readings etc.
A neighbour has a later version that you can buy extra add on vehicle specifics which I borrow sometimes , but I also have a friend with a Snap On Zeus if stuck.
Like you I don't use Windows if I can help it, I prefer the stability and less intrusive Linux offerings.
The Launch I was thinking about similar to mine is this, but check it is suitable.
eBay item number:314961828782

 

[Matt Quinn]

...I'm sick of Windows; I have it on the admin machines, one of the graphics stations (because we have to run Photoshop) and one of the edit stations; but I'm migrating those to Linux as the edit software does run on it. The one laptop I do have has dead batteries and Linux on it! - There are some Android phones lying around I suppose; if there's software for them.

Oddly; we don't really use Laptops at all. - The wife has one but I'm not nicking that.

The Launch looks good... and I'll give it some thought; but maybe a wee bit 'too good' for all I'd use it. I think I may be best described as a former car enthusiast I just need to get this one running. And maybe occasionally poke around with it a wee bit to keep it running.

 

[Matt Quinn]

So... For the record again:

To recap we already have a new battery and LP pump following on from the 'frozen fuel' debacle...

(1) NEW fuel filter fitted... Hasn't helped.

(i) What came out of the old filter didn't look terrible or abnormal really; no water - no gel or other obvious nasties. Blowing through the old filter; it didn't seem impeded in any way.

(ii) 10L of fresh 'winter' fuel has been added to the tank along with 200ml of STP Injector Cleaner.

(iii) The new filter was bled/filled before turning over. Codes were cleared. Still have the glowplug issue so this (unsurprisingly) took a bit of effort.

....When the car ran it did so for about a minute before cutting out throwing up:

P0089 - Fuel pressure reg 1 performance
P0002 - Fuel volume regulator control CKT range/performance
P0087 - Fuel rail pressure too low

Bear in mind this was the first start after the lines had been opened to change the filter. I saw something similar after the LP pump was done.

(2) Car can be re-started - but not always easily...

When it cuts out it consistently throws P0089 with no other errors. - i.e. P0002 and p0087 don't re-appear.

I'm awaiting the delivery of a Launch CR529 which hopefully will give me access to some more meaningful numbers than the simple V-Gate scanner I have does... But...

eBay item number:354510359548 This appears to be the fuel pressure regulator (FPR)? - £35 is 'not the end of the world'.

What I have noticed is that after the engine has cut out - with your head under the bonnet - there is a high-pitched (fairly feint) 'reedy tone' emanating from the area around the HP pump - i.e where the fuel regulator is. This cuts out after 20-30 seconds... sounds like a very small motor or other actuator; possibly a piezo crystal?

Is this noise normal? Is it the FPR? - Should I just order another one at this stage?

- New scanner seems to be taking its time; should have been here already but Royal Mail seem to have misdirected it; that's not helping the 'diagnostic process'. But delays in getting things here aren't helping me generally (the filter took its time too!) and if that's a likely culprit I'd like to order it tonight or tomorrow in anticipation.

...I'd also appreciate some guidance on fitting a new FPR. - Links to threads/tutorials/videos etc. I did do some searching earlier but am no wiser.

 

[bugsymike]

Does your fuel pressure regulator look like this one? This is similar to the one my daughter had on a 06 Fiat Grande Punto 1.3 Multijet some years ago and to remove you released the yellow clip which allowed you to press the release on the black connector and you then undid the regulator with a large spanner.
The other type looks like it is bolted onto a high pressure fuel pump, but on my daughters and some later 1.3 I have seen on line there was no electrical connections on the high pressure fuel pump.
So maybe yours is a later version, perhaps others on Forum are more familiar with.

 

[Matt Quinn]

Very interesting; the first looks like a switch screwed into the end of the rail (i.e. it's the rail pressure sensor) and that's what I would have assumed. I think mine is the latter; attaches with three lugs to the HP pump; and is described in some places as a regulator valve or pump regulator metering control or fuel pump metering solenoid.

I wonder if they work opposite-way-round... i.e. the first regulates by dumping pressure from the rail, while the other restricts the input to the pump (which does seem to be the case) Scratching around I found the item listed as Bosch 0928400680 or equivalent - And from there it seems to be suggested that this is fitted to the low pressure side of the high pressure pump; which makes a bit of sense.

From: https://www.partsinmotion.co.uk/car...ol-valve-common-rail-system-0928400680-detail

Placement on Vehicle	High Pressure Pump (low pressure side)
Function	Control Valve, fuel quantity (common rail system)
Type	Control Valve, fuel quantity (common rail system)

This video isn't of direct help - no I'm not taking a hammer and screwdriver to mine and frankly the English translation is comedy gold! - But it's interesting to see how this bush mechanic takes one apart and apparently hopes to re-use it! - Needs must I suppose.



So... the electrical connection 'to the pump' seems to be just two wires to drive some sort of valve or solenoid. - What that chap there has the appearance of something driven by a coil; but equally well if the moving part of the valve is just the plastic bit, it's possible it could be piezo. - I'm really wondering what the noise is at this stage; whether it's normal or a sign that there is something wrong with the regulator.

A 0928400680 seems to be sold for Vauxhall cars for as little as £20! One specifically listed for the car (same MPN) is £35. So the question is whether it's worth just ordering one in now.

 

[bugsymike]

Sorry I can't guide you as I don't know. On my daughters it was like the first picture on the fuel rail but with a totally basic high pressure pump with no electrical connection at all.
However on the 2010 Fiat Scudo I have and recently worked on, it had what I think is a flow valve solenoid (in effect a cut off valve) and a pressure regulator similar to the second picture but both screwed in to the high pressure fuel pump. This engine is basically a Peugeot 16 valve 2 litre engine on this model. In my case I was trying to chase a misfire and a injector type rattle, I fitted a S/H high pressure pump which cured the misfire but was still left with a rattle , changing the fuel regulator had no affect on the problem or the pressure readings according to the diagnostic tool.
On dumping fuel I did read somewhere fuel is allowed around the pump to lubricate it and prevent damage in a non starting condition.
Re the video, it's frightening what some "bush" mechanics do to keep vehicles running, I won't say "on the road" as they probably use the same technics on brakes and steering.

 

[Matt Quinn]

So... the weirdness continues. On Monday I decided to just order another fuel pressure regulator. Done nothing to the car except grab some photos of the fuel pump to cross-check numbers. The new scanner didn't arrive until late yesterday (Tuesday) afternoon. The new regulator isn't here yet.

More to make sure it was working, I went out to the car, plugged it in, started up and... the car didn't cut out! I was able to let it warm up, stop it, start it again...

I'm still not sure of this scanner - so there WILL be operator error in terms of what I've grabbed but today (Wednesday) I was able to go out, start the car... it didn't cut out.

I let the car idle while I replace the cover plate over the lift pump, tidied up a bit. - Revved it a few times, took it to the end of the street turned it round in the road. - The three data 'snapshots' below are what I semi-accidentally 'grabbed' with the scanner as the car warmed up. The last one is after about 30 minutes of sitting idling...

I've a few other figures manually written down. - Idle seems to be pretty consistently 800rpm/79°C 26200kPa-27200kPa. ....circa 50000kPa at 2500rpm

The latter figures worry me slightly as they seem quite low... but then I can find no sensible/consistent advice as to what they should be; and those are the engine just free-revving and offload.

What's also odd is the MIL light went out on its own! - Though the code still 'hung about' in the ECU as 'pending'.

I'm not confident to take it out and drive it at this stage. But should find a bit of time tomorrow to gather a bit more data. ...What's odd is that to all intents and purposes whatever fault existed on Sunday seems to have cleared itself!

Of course, Sunday was when the fresh fuel/injector cleaner mix first went in. - Is it possible that the mix of cleaning agent and fresh fuel just sitting in the lines for 48 hours has been enough to unclog a 'stuck' regulator? - Bearing in mind that 'whatever' happened to that summer fuel which 'gelled' was enough to ruin a lift pump.

Royal Mail tracking says the new regulator will be here tomorrow; but I think I'll leave actually changing it for the moment. - If flushing more clean fuel/cleaner through the system stands a chance of sorting it out.

This is what I pulled off the scanner earlier... As always; all thoughts and speculation appreciated.


2023-12-13 12:06:30
Data Report
Name:
Address:
Telephone:
Car Information:
Date：2023-12-13 12:5:27



*********************************STREAM Page:1*****************************

Name:Engine Coolant Temperature
Value:15°C
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Engine RPM
Value:2056/min
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Air Flow Rate from Mass Air Flow Sensor
Value:24.39g/s
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Fuel Rail Pressure
Value:45600kPa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Fuel Level Input
Value:40.0%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*********************************STREAM Page:2*****************************

Name:Engine Coolant Temperature
Value:33°C
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Engine RPM
Value:851/min
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Air Flow Rate from Mass Air Flow Sensor
Value:7.73g/s
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Fuel Rail Pressure
Value:28200kPa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Fuel Level Input
Value:40.0%
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*********************************STREAM Page:3*****************************

Name:Engine Coolant Temperature
Value:79°C
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure
Value:83.0kPa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Engine RPM
Value:799/min
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Intake Air Temperature
Value:27°C
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:Fuel Rail Pressure
Value:26000kPa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[bugsymike]

Pressures seem roughly acceptable, more to the point what were the Error codes you read.

 

[Matt Quinn]

Pressures seem roughly acceptable, more to the point what were the Error codes you read.

...Just after the filter change (Sunday) I got:

P0089 - Fuel pressure reg 1 performance
P0002 - Fuel volume regulator control CKT range/performance
P0087 - Fuel rail pressure too low

- Cleared those (with my old scanner) immediately then got the conditions reported on Sunday where it was throwing up P0089 on its own when it cut out. At that stage I noticed the weird noise from the HP pump area.

The car was basically left standing after that... no start attempts until Tuesday afternoon.

When the new scanner was first plugged (on Tuesday) it it was still picking up P0089 and the MIL light was still on; no attempt was made to clear it manually. Yesterday (Wednesday) it went off on its own after maybe the second or third start- though the scanner still 'saw' it as a pending code.

That has now been manually cleared. - I'll need to see what time I get 'spare' today.

TBH I'm reluctant to take things apart/change them if it can/should be avoided.

 

[bugsymike]

...Just after the filter change (Sunday) I got:

P0089 - Fuel pressure reg 1 performance
P0002 - Fuel volume regulator control CKT range/performance
P0087 - Fuel rail pressure too low

- Cleared those (with my old scanner) immediately then got the conditions reported on Sunday where it was throwing up P0089 on its own when it cut out. At that stage I noticed the weird noise from the HP pump area.

The car was basically left standing after that... no start attempts until Tuesday afternoon.

When the new scanner was first plugged (on Tuesday) it it was still picking up P0089 and the MIL light was still on; no attempt was made to clear it manually. Yesterday (Wednesday) it went off on its own after maybe the second or third start- though the scanner still 'saw' it as a pending code.

That has now been manually cleared. - I'll need to see what time I get 'spare' today.

TBH I'm reluctant to take things apart/change them if it can/should be avoided.

I think if it was me I would run it up for some time to normal operating temperature including a few sensible revs (2-3000rpm), check that the deleted code has not returned then run it locally for a few days until you feel more confident in it.
However I would take the Diagnostic tool with me in case it decides to go into "limp mode" or something.
I assume before all this the vehicle was quite reliable?

 

[Matt Quinn]

...I may well - over the course of a few days - do some 'end of the street'/static 'tests'; and try to 'document' fuel pressures etc. as best I can. I don't want to get 'stuck' anywhere as I'm not in a state of health to be pushing cars to the side of the road any more.

- Yes; it was fine... couple of foibles (such as the hill-holder thing) but nothing that gave much concern.

 

[bugsymike]

...I may well - over the course of a few days - do some 'end of the street'/static 'tests'; and try to 'document' fuel pressures etc. as best I can. I don't want to get 'stuck' anywhere as I'm not in a state of health to be pushing cars to the side of the road any more.

- Yes; it was fine... couple of foibles (such as the hill-holder thing) but nothing that gave much concern.

Join the club, re pushing cars these days, at 70 I get out of breath pushing grand daughters push chair up hill.

 

[Matt Quinn]

Sooo.... here we are again; a week later... The static tests did take place; all seemed well... I've been laid up for a few days with the current 'flu-type' bug that's been doing the rounds. So today was the first chance to take the car for a drive. - Got the car about 3/4 mile from the house when the MIL light came back on - ducked off the main road onto the back way into the village; to cut a long story short it cut out maybe half a dozen times on the way back to the house with the scores on the doors being (drum roll) "0089 - Fuel pressure reg 1 performance".

Clearly, the car's been trying to tell me something ...I think it might be the fuel pressure regulator

Oddly enough... I did order a replacement last week and it did arrive - I was optimistic enough to hope I wouldn't have to fit it... That's what optimism get you!

 

[Bantamsteve]

Hi Matt sos to hear your situation ,did you get the p0089 fault sorted with the regulator,I'm currently living a parallel life to you with my 1.3 qubo, cuts out ,with no real pattern ,starts straight away ,sometimes cuts out within 100metres ,sometimes goes for 20 miles before eml comes on and cuts out ,I've changed the rail sensor and regulator but it still the same, but after reading your post I've removed the lift pump assembly In the tank , and got out a few bits of gunk and a large piece of gunk about 9mm ish, just the same size as the diameter of the uptake pipe ,fingers crossed its the culprit, but it's a fiat so probably not , anyway it started and drove a bit ,I managed to get up a hill I couldn't get get up this morning ! So tomorrow I'll have a bit of a fiddle with it and hopefully any small bubbles of air will be removed by the magic fiat else. So to sumerise I have the same issues as you but I'm trying to sort it in the reverse order,p.s I'm gonna look at fuel filter in engine bay tomorrow too

 

[Matt Quinn]

Alas... the 'flu bug' I had turned very nasty indeed; I developed a serious chest infection which basically 'floored' me. So the state of play is exactly as it was on the 20th of December; coming up on three weeks ago! I 'may' be well enough to go outside and have a look at it tomorrow or Wednesday; but I'm taking no chances.

My next step will be to change the low pressure regulator (I've had the replacement sitting on my desk since before Christmas!) - which in my case is on the fuel pump; as that does seem to be what the code is indicating as faulty. - After the 'frozen fuel' debacle my lift pump sounded like a coffee grinder; so that was obviously needing done - with the fuel filter following on. So, my first line of thought was to ensure the low pressure/delivery side was 'OK'.

What I'm getting back is "0089 - Fuel pressure reg 1 performance"... there is also that weird noise (should it be doing that?) I mentioned. What I don't seem to be getting is the:

P0002 - Fuel volume regulator control CKT range/performance
P0087 - Fuel rail pressure too low

...Which seems to follow opening the low pressure side of the system (i.e. changing the fuel filter etc). - I'm guessing that might be the air being purged from the system maybe?

Is your regulator on the rail or the pump? There seem to be a couple of variants with these engines? Mine is on the pump. - I've still had no input regarding a gasket (I have some Loctite MR5922 to hand) under the regulator or the bolts; had to order a longer set of Torx drivers - I'm assuming they're T25? - Any advice or input would be very much appreciated.

And what codes are you getting back after the MIL light comes on and it cuts out?

I've removed the lift pump assembly In the tank , and got out a few bits of gunk and a large piece of gunk about 9mm ish, just the same size as the diameter of the uptake pipe ,fingers crossed its the culprit,

That sounds like some pretty serious gunk! - In my case neither the residual fuel from the (replaced) pump or the fuel filter was what I'd think was particularly mucky... and looking down the hole into the tank; that looked clear. - It seems the damage was done by the waxed fuel; but I'm at a loss to understand how! - Normally waxed diesel just 'melts'; bit of a run-through with normal stuff and lesson learned. - In this case it seems to have wrecked a previously-fine lift pump (are they really THAT fragile) and the LP regulator valve!