Hello New Panda section

I will be embarking on a project shortly to create a new every day car for myself. I have an addiction to the 1368cc 16v FIRE engine and smaller humble FIATs. I have so far put a N/A version in my classic Panda and am just completing an Abarth turbo conversion on my road-going Uno track car.



I currently drive the 1.4 16v classic Panda as an everyday car and it is great but I fancy something a little bit more grown up in terms of comfort and real world performance. I know the new Panda is basic to most, but it's not to someone who owns a classic Panda and an Uno. Although the fast car mods will compromise the Panda for everyday use, I have a history of owning pretty harsh riding cars so probably even sports suspension will be a magic carpet ride for me! The car will probably see the track once after I finish it, so other than that it will be on hot hatch road duty.

This will be the last FIAT I will modify for a while as I have run out of humble FIATs that I really want to put better engines in. I will perhaps calm down on the modding for a bit and enjoy my creations, particularly the Uno when the spring comes round or maybe move to other car types in time if I can't suppress the desire!

Initial plan:
- Get cheapest Panda Dynamic/Eleganza car I can get with any engine type.
- T-jet turbo FIRE engine with Abarth turbo (already got)
- RR re-map to probably around 170BHP peak power, but with a view to keeping the flattest torque curve I can, rather than the highest peak figure.
- Abarth 500 Miltek exhaust (already got)
- Complete rear beam/brake setup from 59 plate 500 1.4 Sport (already got)
- Front anti-roll bar from the same (already got)
- After market dampers/spring setup with adjustable damping rate (Koni is front runner at the moment)
- Panda/500 1.3 MJet C514R gearbox fitted with FIRE bellhousing, utilising normal gear change equipment (bought, but not collected yet)
- Quaiffe LSD (already got - removing from my classic Panda)
- Standard drive shafts, front wishbones, engine and box mounts
- Attempt to use GP T-jet front brake callipers and 284mm discs
- 15" wheels (195/50 tyres)

As you can see I have been thinking about this project for a while and some parts have come up for reasonable prices and I have got them. The donor GP Turbo ECUs will be used for the engine on top of the Panda electrics, so no re-wiring of the whole car. I aim to keep all the Panda's features and original dashboard, etc. Other than the car being lowered and having 15" wheels, I don't plan any modifications to body or interior. MJet gearbox has nice high ratio 4th and 5th that should suit the high torque engine and make cruising a pleasure. It is also "reinforced" apparently and does carry a higher torque rating than the standard boxes. What the hell it actually means technically I have no idea as I can't find any decent literature on it!

Things I haven't figured out yet
1) Don't think dual mass flywheel setup will fit in the C514 bellhousing and/or work with the clutch mech. I don't know if a normal 1.4 FIRE flywheel fits the turbo engine. Bolt pattern looks similar, but might not be the same.
2) What are the exact differences in the 500 suspension versus the Panda? Are the front wishbones a lot different? Do 500 aftermarket and FIAT suspension items basically fit Pandas? Everything has different part numbers in FIAT land these days, so it is hard to tell any more what bits are actually interchangeable in terms of basic size and geometry. There are several wishbone part numbers for different 500 engine versions for example, but I doubt they are more than the tiniest bit different really. 500 front track is 47mm more than the Panda, but this could easily just be different tyre size/wheel offset. Rear is similar amount too.
What are people's opinions on after market suspension types for the Panda? Any recommendations from experience? Don't want coilovers as it I believe it is a compromise too far. Can't be bothered with paying for proper corner-weight setup and the faff of infinite adjustment of things for a road car. Just want one easy to access knob for basic bump adjustment, if that. I hope that the 500 rear beam I've got will just bolt on?!

The project will start in earnest when I find a suitable very cheap car to start with. Hopefully around £1k. This is a "budget" build and no-one else will be doing any work for me and it won't have more than one visit to the rolling road, etc. I will have spent about £1300 on the bits so far (not including my "old" LSD) and am aiming to spend under £3500 for the whole project, including the car. I'm pretty relaxed about timeframes, so it probably won't be done in a couple of months like the Uno or anything.

I welcome opinion and experience that will help me progress with this project in the most logical and cost-effective way.

Can't really help, with any of your questions, but im excited about the project! :slayer:

Sounds like a great project, good luck with it. As a matter of interest, does the 500 rear beam have an anti-roll bar?

What about doing something 4wd with the 2003 4wd panda driverain? (i know nothing about it but did read it is being put into the 2007 500) I really like the Panda 100hp's looks.

babbo_umbro said:

Sounds like a great project, good luck with it. As a matter of interest, does the 500 rear beam have an anti-roll bar?

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It is from a late 59 plate so was really hoping it did have, but it doesn't. According to my sources, FIAT made rear anti-roll bars standard from December 2009 production. Likely, then, that you would need to get one from a "10" plate car or any Abarth of course. Has the disk brakes though.

Adrian Bravo said:

What about doing something 4wd with the 2003 4wd panda driverain? (i know nothing about it but did read it is being put into the 2007 500) I really like the Panda 100hp's looks.

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I would be surprised if it could take the torque would be my basic concern, but perhaps more importantly to me, it would be too expensive to buy. I've never seen a 4x4 drivetrain for sale or a car for parts. I would basically have to get a 4x4 car due to the many little mods that they have to accomodate the stuff. I am looking near £1000 for a car with a broken engine or very high mileage or something, but even the cheapest 4x4 will be £4000? That would mean a build cost of £6500 perhaps. I don't have the money and it seems like too much to spend on a car that will be worth a a lot less when modded. If I can keep to my £3500 budget for the total costs of the 2WD car, it might be worth near that amount if I do decide or need to to sell it.

lewey said:

It is from a late 59 plate so was really hoping it did have, but it doesn't. According to my sources, FIAT made rear anti-roll bars standard from December 2009 production. Likely, then, that you would need to get one from a "10" plate car or any Abarth of course. Has the disk brakes though.


I would be surprised if it could take the torque would be my basic concern, but perhaps more importantly to me, it would be too expensive to buy. I've never seen a 4x4 drivetrain for sale or a car for parts. I would basically have to get a 4x4 car due to the many little mods that they have to accomodate the stuff. I am looking near £1000 for a car with a broken engine or very high mileage or something, but even the cheapest 4x4 will be £4000? That would mean a build cost of £6500 perhaps. I don't have the money and it seems like too much to spend on a car that will be worth a a lot less when modded. If I can keep to my £3500 budget for the total costs of the 2WD car, it might be worth near that amount if I do decide or need to to sell it.

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i think it's a good idea to stick with a 2wd car as well. The 4wd system in the 4x4 isn't set up for performance.

Mind you the 4WD does have a much better suspension setup, ie independent. Wonder if that would bolt on? Am guessing there will be a subframe. 2WD with the 4WD rear suspenders could be a good setup potentially.

It might make it even more complicated though!

Lewey,

I like your style - have read up about your street sleeper Classic in the past.

I too would have suggested the 4x4 as a good starting point, as it has fully independent suspension at the rear, what with all the 4x4 gubbins and all, together with a rear ARB into the bargain. It also has discs on the rear as well. I have always thought the suspension on the my current-shape 4x4 (I too had a classic, although I left that standard, remarkably, seeing as I've never left a car un-molested in my life...) to be excellent and could be truely outstanding with a decent set of properly built and setup dampers. True it rides a bit high, but as you're not interested in offroadability, you would drop it easily.

I am just finishing off a Rotrex Supercharger conversion for my car and I am very very pleased with things so far. I went the S/C route rather than turbo, as I wanted to preserve the transmission - turbo's just bang too much torque at low revs. The Rotrex (about 2/3rds the size of the alternators - amazingly compact) just enhances the torque and power profiles of the standard engine, so produces nice, progressive increases as the revs rise. No fat slug of boost at 2000rpm that rips the gearbox apart.

We're still finalising injectors, but we're using a Dastek UNI-Q piggyback ECU and this is one of the really up-to-date units that manages the whole setup, complete with bluetooth switchable maps if you so desire. I have limited boost to 0.6bar only, so nothing too drastic. A small neat front-mout I/C and oil cooler for the Rotrex complete the picture. I had to change the manifold and exhaust system for a better flowing number, but we did nothing silly and have retained a nice, quiet, legal (proper CAT etc etc) Panda, yet given it to capacity to breath.

The car looks 100% standard, except for a slightly more open grill to allow more air into the front of the car. Power and Torque will be anywhere from 100-120 of each, peaking at about 6000 and 4000rpm respectively, depending on the setup of the restrictor for the Rotrex. My aim is for this to be a perfectly driveable and resilient motor, keeping all the fabulaous traits of the standard car (fun, chuckable, quiet, economic, practical), but with some added zest when required. I will probably keep things conservative, fo obvious reasons.

I have already upgraded the brakes with better discs and pads, but also have plans for the suspension, once the engine is fully sorted.

I've gone back to my roots a bit with this car, having done the faster, more expensive thing for far too long and needed to bring back the spirit of my youth. I guess it's not often that what some might describe as a mid-life crisis (it's not though, I can assure you..!), results in driving around in a stealthy Q-car Panda rather than dying my hair black and buying a tacky red Ferrari or BMW Z4, which might be considered the norm...!

Good luck with yours!

Phil

306maxi said:

i think it's a good idea to stick with a 2wd car as well. The 4wd system in the 4x4 isn't set up for performance.

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Agree. It is pretty much a non-starter.

trackdayqueen said:

Mind you the 4WD does have a much better suspension setup, ie independent. Wonder if that would bolt on? Am guessing there will be a subframe. 2WD with the 4WD rear suspenders could be a good setup potentially.

It might make it even more complicated though!

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The independent rear does appeal and I agree it has potential for the best rear setup, but finding one would be very hard and I suspect it wouldn't be cheap if I do. I want to make leaps in performance for small money. Unless I found a setup for cheap, it might not fit in with my objectives. It does look like the 4x4 subframe would just bolt on though. The new cost from FIAT is astronomical in comparison to the beams. The 500 rear beam and front roll bar was £150 and from a car well under a year old.

R1NGA said:

Good luck with yours!

Phil

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Good luck with yours too. You should make a thread with pictures when you've finished perhaps.

I found more info on 500 suspension and does simply have wider track front and rear. As I have got the wider rear beam I better get some 500 front wishbones, hubs and drive shafts I suppose! It seems fairly safe to presume I am buying for a 500 in terms of dampers and springs then.

So does anyone have any experience/knowledge they can pass on about 500/Panda suspension and interchangeable parts? Actual differences that are known in wishbones, hubs, subframes? Do 500 wishbones even fit on a Panda? Are they wider or is it the hubs that give the extra track or both? In time I will find this out for myself, but being the pioneer can be expensive!

lewey said:

So does anyone have any experience/knowledge they can pass on about 500/Panda suspension and interchangeable parts? Actual differences that are known in wishbones, hubs, subframes? Do 500 wishbones even fit on a Panda? Are they wider or is it the hubs that give the extra track or both? In time I will find this out for myself, but being the pioneer can be expensive!

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I'm afraid I don't know sadly.

The suspension arms are different part numbers and prices on shop4parts so one would assume they're different. I took some pictures of the 500 front suspension and I remember that the droplinks were different to the Panda ones so I've got a sneaking suspicion that it's all different at least at the front

The ocap site is very handy for crossreferencing suspension parts

http://sirio.unonet.it/Ocap/ArticoliEuropeo.nsf/indexen!OpenFrameSet

Suspension arms are different but it could be that the 500 arms are cast iron and Panda's are just pressed steel, the droplinks are definitely different but the tie rod ends are the same at least.....

Hope that helps at least a little.

306maxi said:

Suspension arms are different but it could be that the 500 arms are cast iron and Panda's are just pressed steel, the droplinks are definitely different but the tie rod ends are the same at least.....

Hope that helps at least a little.

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I'd hope that the lower arms are not cast iron! Did you mean aluminium?

Have you considered Ford Ka components...they are supposedly better sorted suspension and handling wise, but still based on the panda platform...? I have no idea if they would even match up correctly of course, perhaps might involve too much fabrication...

trackdayqueen said:

I'd hope that the lower arms are not cast iron! Did you mean aluminium?

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It says cast iron!

306maxi said:

It says cast iron!

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They won't be cast iron! Blimey!

trackdayqueen said:

They won't be cast iron! Blimey!

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From an unsprung weight PoV you'd hope not. I can't for the life of me remember if the arms are a silvery colour (aluminium ones) or the colour of cast iron but my money is on cast iron. Well at least you won't be bending any arms, just subframes

306maxi said:

I'm afraid I don't know sadly.

The suspension arms are different part numbers and prices on shop4parts so one would assume they're different. I took some pictures of the 500 front suspension and I remember that the droplinks were different to the Panda ones so I've got a sneaking suspicion that it's all different at least at the front

The ocap site is very handy for crossreferencing suspension parts

http://sirio.unonet.it/Ocap/ArticoliEuropeo.nsf/indexen!OpenFrameSet

Suspension arms are different but it could be that the 500 arms are cast iron and Panda's are just pressed steel, the droplinks are definitely different but the tie rod ends are the same at least.....

Hope that helps at least a little.

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Thanks for your help, I have the drop links with the 500 anti-roll bar fortunately. Useful web link.

bedbug said:

Have you considered Ford Ka components...they are supposedly better sorted suspension and handling wise, but still based on the panda platform...? I have no idea if they would even match up correctly of course, perhaps might involve too much fabrication...

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I haven't properly considered them, no. I am trying to avoid fabrication due to limited space and resources at my place. And some lack of skills. I will look into it though. I am already fairly committed down the 500 path with the components I have.

trackdayqueen said:

They won't be cast iron! Blimey!

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They are ductile iron aka ductile cast iron . It is indeed an iron, but more elastic in it's behaviour and apparently a good thing for wishbones.

Also note in the picture below the swan neck tie rods, seemingly there to get round drop link joint. Curious how shop4parts reckon there is one (straight) part for all pandas and 500s. The racks are all the same.

lewey said:

Thanks for your help, I have the drop links with the 500 anti-roll bar fortunately. Useful web link.


I haven't properly considered them, no. I am trying to avoid fabrication due to limited space and resources at my place. And some lack of skills. I will look into it though. I am already fairly committed down the 500 path with the components I have.


They are ductile iron aka ductile cast iron . It is indeed an iron, but more elastic in it's behaviour and apparently a good thing for wishbones.

Also note in the picture below the swan neck tie rods, seemingly there to get round drop link joint. Curious how shop4parts reckon there is one (straight) part for all pandas and 500s. The racks are all the same.

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Well I'm almost 100% sure that whilst the droplinks are all straight, that they are different lengths. Wonder if the ARB's are different?

306maxi said:

Well I'm almost 100% sure that whilst the droplinks are all straight, that they are different lengths. Wonder if the ARB's are different?

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When I said tie rods, I meant steering rod ends. It either indicates the drop links for ARB being in slightly different location or that the hubs connection/geometry demands it. Either way, the idea of a common steering rod end is puzzling. Also shop4parts offer a single ARB for all 500s. I believe them that it fits, but every engine type has a different part number due to the differing requirements.