Here is the 'before' sound of my Punto mk2b 16V before I take the head extension off to investigate the noises.
All suggestions welcomed!
Cheers.
All suggestions welcomed!
Cheers.
Punto (Mk2/2b) Engine noises
- Thread starter judderbar
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Punto (Mk2/2b) Engine noises
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sounds like a few unhappy tappets there....
when was the last oil change and what oil was used?
Also can i hear an exhaust bore?
Ziggy
when was the last oil change and what oil was used?
Also can i hear an exhaust bore?
Ziggy
Oil change december 5w/40 fully synthetic. Engines sounds more or less the same as it has done since i can remember, so any changes have happened slowly rather than suddenly at the oil change. I have not noticed an exhaust sound or fumes.
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Other than Fiat, which supplier of hydraulic lifters can be relied upon to produce a decent part for the punto? There are a few suppliers on Ebay, the cheapest is Trechii Ltd but they do not have a good reputation on the internet with some people claiming the lifters only last a few hundred miles before becoming noisy again.
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If the tappets aren't getting the oil flow - they become tappety
as they use oil to cushion the force applied - Ie self adjusting
If fitting new tappets and it returns, to me - it implies there is a big oil delivery problem - causing them to "run out of oil" and become noisey as they start slapping away
Ziggy
as they use oil to cushion the force applied - Ie self adjusting
If fitting new tappets and it returns, to me - it implies there is a big oil delivery problem - causing them to "run out of oil" and become noisey as they start slapping away
Ziggy
I have a diesel that sounds like that
That's more that just tappets
That's more that just tappets
The noise is not really so bad, but since I now have a set of Ribe sockets I suppose I will be taking a look at it sooner or later.
Re: Engine noises - so what was causing that noise??
I have taken the cam carrier off and now i am on the hunt for the source of that noise.
There are a 4 crosses marked on the large flat face of the lifter at the position where the screw driver test pinpointed the loudest hammering, but the inside of the lifter was reasonably clean. The wear is not very dramatic though considering the noise, perhaps 2/3 thousandths. The wear is invisible when i use the lifter as a mirror at an angle but clear when looking down on the lifter. There is a small air gap in the centre in places. The cams, are still in the carrier and appear to be unmarked and in very good condition. A few of the other lifters have a cross or two but so feint it could be possibly polished out with some scotch bright.
Prior to taking the cam carrier off and while turning the engine by hand with the plugs out i could hear a clicking sound but unfortunately i did not make a note of what position the cam was in when it clicked.
I have replaced the clean marked/damaged lifter only, full of oil in the expanded position with the flat face marked with a black pen, then put the cam carrier back on and turned the cam over by hand and there is no noise as the valve is pushed down and all of the ink was gone after the testing so the lifter appears to be rotating ok.
Selecting the best looking lifters and putting their faces together there is no light visible between the surfaces and no rocking. They seem perfectly flat. What should they be like?
Interestingly right at the position of the noise (when the engine was running) the rubber surface of the gasket is worn thru to the metal on both sides of the gasket but otherwise in very good condition.
I am going to have a go at taking all the valve springs out and check for play in the stems. All of the valves can be pushed down a cm or so without sticking using two hands on a hammer handle.
I am dissapointed I have not yet found a definate source of the noise, considering the screw driver test indicated the noise was right at the top of the cam carrier under the right hand number 3 lifter.
I am inclined to reassemble the cleaned engine as it is and see what it sounds like. I have spent so long thinking about this noise another couple of days of work is not going to be so bad in the scheme of things.
Suggestions welcome as always.
Cheers
I have taken the cam carrier off and now i am on the hunt for the source of that noise.
There are a 4 crosses marked on the large flat face of the lifter at the position where the screw driver test pinpointed the loudest hammering, but the inside of the lifter was reasonably clean. The wear is not very dramatic though considering the noise, perhaps 2/3 thousandths. The wear is invisible when i use the lifter as a mirror at an angle but clear when looking down on the lifter. There is a small air gap in the centre in places. The cams, are still in the carrier and appear to be unmarked and in very good condition. A few of the other lifters have a cross or two but so feint it could be possibly polished out with some scotch bright.
Prior to taking the cam carrier off and while turning the engine by hand with the plugs out i could hear a clicking sound but unfortunately i did not make a note of what position the cam was in when it clicked.
I have replaced the clean marked/damaged lifter only, full of oil in the expanded position with the flat face marked with a black pen, then put the cam carrier back on and turned the cam over by hand and there is no noise as the valve is pushed down and all of the ink was gone after the testing so the lifter appears to be rotating ok.
Selecting the best looking lifters and putting their faces together there is no light visible between the surfaces and no rocking. They seem perfectly flat. What should they be like?
Interestingly right at the position of the noise (when the engine was running) the rubber surface of the gasket is worn thru to the metal on both sides of the gasket but otherwise in very good condition.
I am going to have a go at taking all the valve springs out and check for play in the stems. All of the valves can be pushed down a cm or so without sticking using two hands on a hammer handle.
I am dissapointed I have not yet found a definate source of the noise, considering the screw driver test indicated the noise was right at the top of the cam carrier under the right hand number 3 lifter.
I am inclined to reassemble the cleaned engine as it is and see what it sounds like. I have spent so long thinking about this noise another couple of days of work is not going to be so bad in the scheme of things.
Suggestions welcome as always.
Cheers
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Engine back together again and that tappet/hammering under the most damaged lifter face is now a healthier clicking sound - a tappet sound. There are no worrisome noises coming from the cam carrier now using the 'stethoscope' but it is clicking quite a bit. When driving the car it seems to accelerate better and while driving the engine sounds better - i even noticed some gear box noise over the winter tyre noise. Outside the car, the engine still sounds like the car has done some miles, but inside it seems like a smoother sound.
Possibly the clicking will reduce a bit once all of the air is out of the lifters.
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To do this job (only working on my own) I made up a plastic version of the fiat tool to hold the lifters which worked well for putting the top back on again, but taking the top off I made a mess of things by not removing the 10 bolts first
- I had not even thought about them being in the way of my plastic tools! The whole thing turned to custard quite quickly because if the cam carrier is not lifted straight up - slowly or otherwise it it will jam on the dowels and then before I knew it i had lifters on the concrete floor!
The other thing about the bolts is that when the cam carrier is turned over the bolts can jam inside the cam carrier! Once the cam carrier is on the bench, you can just about get your fingers in over the cams to move them back into position but getting them out by pushing from below is problematic because you risk the damn things jamming inside again! To solve this problem in case I needed to remove the cam carrier again I wound 10m of christmas tree wiring onto my Ribe drive and magnetised the drive using 12V. The ribe drive actually became quite permanently magnetic easily sufficient to pull the bolts out with care - the picture shows the ribe drive holding another ribe drive without power supplied-.
I also had a major problem (for me anyway) with a previously overtightened bolt on one of the dowel positions - seemed like a disaster but i was able to use the dowel to line up my drill to Recoil/helicoil the head using a 8M 1.0 Recoil kit. I then used the same Recoil set to put a Recoil on the dowel and then pull the dowel out using sockets and washers around the dowel and tighten one of the cam carrier bolts thru the sockets and into the recoiled dowel. I then cleaned up the end of the dowel without the Recoil and put the threaded end into the head, this time pulled in using the new recoil inside the head. It seemed like a miracle at the time!
To make sure the cam carrier went in over those dowels I put long screw drivers (my MDC tools) thru the dowel cam carrier bolt holes so while holding the cam carrier I was able to look around and put each screw driver in turn thru a dowel - that worked well so I did not jam it up again.
I found too that if you use the fiat tool to lock the cam carrier some of the lifters are at the fully open valve position in the middle of the cam carrier - I did not think the dowels would be reached in that position so I found the best compromise position which is about 4mm less open and gives you 4 points of contact at each end of the cam carrier with two valves and two dowels at each corner - you can rest it there and remove your plastic 'fiat' tools. Once again another miracles as the tools came out and all was well! This is quite a big job for a DIY person!! It took me a day to get the cam carrier off and another day to put it back on again - plus days spent cleaning lifters and sorting out recoil kits etc etc.
How to clean the lifters - like the guy says you need to be well organised - I struggled with that - its a bit mind numbing to be well organised for the time it takes to do 16 lifters!
Possibly the clicking will reduce a bit once all of the air is out of the lifters.
------------
To do this job (only working on my own) I made up a plastic version of the fiat tool to hold the lifters which worked well for putting the top back on again, but taking the top off I made a mess of things by not removing the 10 bolts first
- I had not even thought about them being in the way of my plastic tools! The whole thing turned to custard quite quickly because if the cam carrier is not lifted straight up - slowly or otherwise it it will jam on the dowels and then before I knew it i had lifters on the concrete floor! The other thing about the bolts is that when the cam carrier is turned over the bolts can jam inside the cam carrier! Once the cam carrier is on the bench, you can just about get your fingers in over the cams to move them back into position but getting them out by pushing from below is problematic because you risk the damn things jamming inside again! To solve this problem in case I needed to remove the cam carrier again I wound 10m of christmas tree wiring onto my Ribe drive and magnetised the drive using 12V. The ribe drive actually became quite permanently magnetic easily sufficient to pull the bolts out with care - the picture shows the ribe drive holding another ribe drive without power supplied-.
I also had a major problem (for me anyway) with a previously overtightened bolt on one of the dowel positions - seemed like a disaster but i was able to use the dowel to line up my drill to Recoil/helicoil the head using a 8M 1.0 Recoil kit. I then used the same Recoil set to put a Recoil on the dowel and then pull the dowel out using sockets and washers around the dowel and tighten one of the cam carrier bolts thru the sockets and into the recoiled dowel. I then cleaned up the end of the dowel without the Recoil and put the threaded end into the head, this time pulled in using the new recoil inside the head
. It seemed like a miracle at the time! To make sure the cam carrier went in over those dowels I put long screw drivers (my MDC tools) thru the dowel cam carrier bolt holes so while holding the cam carrier I was able to look around and put each screw driver in turn thru a dowel - that worked well so I did not jam it up again.
I found too that if you use the fiat tool to lock the cam carrier some of the lifters are at the fully open valve position in the middle of the cam carrier - I did not think the dowels would be reached in that position so I found the best compromise position which is about 4mm less open and gives you 4 points of contact at each end of the cam carrier with two valves and two dowels at each corner - you can rest it there and remove your plastic 'fiat' tools. Once again another miracles as the tools came out and all was well! This is quite a big job for a DIY person!! It took me a day to get the cam carrier off and another day to put it back on again - plus days spent cleaning lifters and sorting out recoil kits etc etc.
How to clean the lifters - like the guy says you need to be well organised - I struggled with that - its a bit mind numbing to be well organised for the time it takes to do 16 lifters!
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Re: Engine noises - Stopped hammering - clicking happily?
Magnetised ribe drive to remove bolts so you can insert your lifter holding tools plus avoiding the bloody bolts jamming inside the cam carrier!
Possibly the reason for the hammering sound was one of the lifters had a twisted check valve clip when dissasembled by a G force. I cannot know for sure if it was like that in the engine though
https://www.fiatforum.com/tech-talk/419275-grinding-profile-fiat-hydraulic-lifters.html?p=4026861
Magnetised ribe drive to remove bolts so you can insert your lifter holding tools plus avoiding the bloody bolts jamming inside the cam carrier!
Possibly the reason for the hammering sound was one of the lifters had a twisted check valve clip when dissasembled by a G force. I cannot know for sure if it was like that in the engine though
https://www.fiatforum.com/tech-talk/419275-grinding-profile-fiat-hydraulic-lifters.html?p=4026861
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