What Shocked You Today

[Cornish Ian]

The old Focus RS from 2000 was 200bhp, the current Focus RS is 345bhp, so I don’t suspect any weight difference between the older and newer cars would help the old car much. Not unless the newer car weighs two and a half tons

Some of the RS500 sierra Cosworths are over 100k these are the rarer 3 door models. Other sierra cosworths can be anything from a few grand to 70-80k it’s all dependant on condition and history, people want the best examples.

I totally agree with you though many more nicer cars could be had for the money, these old cars are not very fast my current standards and not very safe.

Probably depends on your definition of nicer I guess.
If you consider these cars as a part of our motoring history then these prices can start to make sense.
Some are just destined for a museum but some are bought to be driven and when driven quickly need much more driver involvement which can be part of the attraction.
Some of these cars were built in small numbers to enable type approval for racing so buyers are getting a rare car with a motor sport connection.
In race trim the Cosworth RS500 could produce 500 ish bhp, even the old RS3100 built in 1974 had 400+ bhp available with the 3.4 ltr (10% allowed upgrade ) quad cam engine.

 

[AndyRKett]

Probably depends on your definition of nicer I guess.
If you consider these cars as a part of our motoring history then these prices can start to make sense.
Some are just destined for a museum but some are bought to be driven and when driven quickly need much more driver involvement which can be part of the attraction.
Some of these cars were built in small numbers to enable type approval for racing so buyers are getting a rare car with a motor sport connection.
In race trim the Cosworth RS500 could produce 500 ish bhp, even the old RS3100 built in 1974 had 400+ bhp available with the 3.4 ltr (10% allowed upgrade ) quad cam engine.

I don’t think that prices on these cars, don’t make sense. if it’s old then there will always be someone with a fat bank balance willing to pay the bucks and more so as they become rare with age.

But there are cheaper, faster, more comfortable, cars than a Sierra Cosworth.

There is an ad for a RS500 comes up on Google for £120k with only 27,000 miles on the clock 1987 E reg,

Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth - For Sale -

A unmissable opportunity. An absolute classic presented with only two former keeper and rare low miles. Please contact us for more details on 01623 622627.

www.parkwayspecialistcars.co.uk

Acres of grey plastic with black buttons takes me back to my grandfathers white Sierra Ghia which I think was maybe a D or E reg (he upgraded to a Granada Which was also white so in my minds these two cars merge a bit)

Now assuming this Sierra has 500bhp (which it doesn’t because the road going cars came with only 224hp) and this one hasn’t been molested.

What else could I buy for £120k that would be a “nicer” car? There are literally hundreds of other cars I would buy for that money long before I ever bought an RS500

Right now I could buy a new VW Arteon R Shooting Brake with more power, more comfort, and less miles for less than half the price of that cosworth and have enough change to put a deposit down on a house.
It’s probably not going to turn the same heads the Sierra would, but It will still turn head and still be on the driveway when I wake up in the morning. Not only that but id dispute anyone who tried to claim the Sierra was a nicer car.

 

[bugsymike]

I don’t think that prices on these cars, don’t make sense. if it’s old then there will always be someone with a fat bank balance willing to pay the bucks and more so as they become rare with age.

But there are cheaper, faster, more comfortable, cars than a Sierra Cosworth.

There is an ad for a RS500 comes up on Google for £120k with only 27,000 miles on the clock 1987 E reg,

Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth - For Sale -

A unmissable opportunity. An absolute classic presented with only two former keeper and rare low miles. Please contact us for more details on 01623 622627.

www.parkwayspecialistcars.co.uk

Acres of grey plastic with black buttons takes me back to my grandfathers white Sierra Ghia which I think was maybe a D or E reg (he upgraded to a Granada Which was also white so in my minds these two cars merge a bit)

Now assuming this Sierra has 500bhp (which it doesn’t because the road going cars came with only 224hp) and this one hasn’t been molested.

What else could I buy for £120k that would be a “nicer” car? There are literally hundreds of other cars I would buy for that money long before I ever bought an RS500

Right now I could buy a new VW Arteon R Shooting Brake with more power, more comfort, and less miles for less than half the price of that cosworth and have enough change to put a deposit down on a house.
It’s probably not going to turn the same heads the Sierra would, but It will still turn head and still be on the driveway when I wake up in the morning. Not only that but id dispute anyone who tried to claim the Sierra was a nicer car.

Nostalgia will always sell cars, I have had lots of fun in the past with cars of my youth, which when compared with modern sophistication are totally different in every way and by todays standards would be described by some as dangerous.
You could argue that modern drivers are so insulated from the outside world with all the gadgets in their cars that they truly need all the multiple airbags, crash restraint systems, ABS, YAW control, 4x4 etc. However they do still crash them.
Most drivers in the past were used to poor road holding and if their car went into a slide could react correctly, whereas now they would have to be taught on a Skid Pan course. When I taught why wife and children to drive if it snowed I would find a nice quiet safe area and let them get the feel of a car out of control and give them an idea of how to react. Around my area if we have half an inch of snow traffic comes to a standstill, I recall a package Skiing holiday in Italy years ago when on the weekend the locals would drive up into the mountains to ski, the road was packed snow and as the Fiat 127 finally gave up grip the entire family apart from driver dad would all sit on the bonnet to get traction and they continued happily holding on to the top .
I bought a car a while back and in conversation with the owner outside looking at the two lane road which had just been designated a 20 Mph limit down from 30Mph I mentioned it had been the main road into the area in the past and had been a 70Mph limit, he was shocked!

 

[vexorg]

I'm not sure I would call them dangerous, it depends how they are driven. The first thing any professional driver would do if going fast would be switch off all the ESP junk and rely on skill rather than a car that thinks it knows best.

For you average modern driver , yes, more dangerous, only because they have not grown up without all these aids. I still have fun pushing cars and finding the driver aid tends to kick in a bit to early to enjoy yourself.

 

[bugsymike]

I'm not sure I would call them dangerous, it depends how they are driven. The first thing any professional driver would do if going fast would be switch off all the ESP junk and rely on skill rather than a car that thinks it knows best.

For you average modern driver , yes, more dangerous, only because they have not grown up without all these aids. I still have fun pushing cars and finding the driver aid tends to kick in a bit to early to enjoy yourself.

I agree, dangerous only by the standards of people who only drive modern cars or motorbikes.
I was amazed that motorbikes nowadays come with ABS etc.
However, although some of the many motorbikes I have owned were capable of 100Mph +, I have never had one that could lift the back wheel simply by using the front brake. With SLS drum brakes, cable operated, you had to ride within the limits of the day and what ever skill you imagined you had .
In the late 60s I had a friend who was the foreman of a Honda Motorcycle dealers and I was able to buy older British bikes when part exchanged for Honda Dreams and the like. 1950s Francis Barnetts for £7 and £9 , a Triumph 3TA Twentyone (bathtubmodel) for £25 etc. As a 16 year old a neighbour sold me his 1955 600cc Matchless G11 with a double adult sidecar for £10 ( legally I could drive it on L plates in those days)as he had just bought an early Toyota for his family transport, they were all what I would describe as bangers and just sold on cheaply when I fancied something different. Having said that they would all be well into the £1000s if I still owned them .

 

[Cornish Ian]

I don’t think that prices on these cars, don’t make sense. if it’s old then there will always be someone with a fat bank balance willing to pay the bucks and more so as they become rare with age.

But there are cheaper, faster, more comfortable, cars than a Sierra Cosworth.

There is an ad for a RS500 comes up on Google for £120k with only 27,000 miles on the clock 1987 E reg,

Ford Sierra RS500 Cosworth - For Sale -

A unmissable opportunity. An absolute classic presented with only two former keeper and rare low miles. Please contact us for more details on 01623 622627.

www.parkwayspecialistcars.co.uk

Acres of grey plastic with black buttons takes me back to my grandfathers white Sierra Ghia which I think was maybe a D or E reg (he upgraded to a Granada Which was also white so in my minds these two cars merge a bit)

Now assuming this Sierra has 500bhp (which it doesn’t because the road going cars came with only 224hp) and this one hasn’t been molested.

What else could I buy for £120k that would be a “nicer” car? There are literally hundreds of other cars I would buy for that money long before I ever bought an RS500

Right now I could buy a new VW Arteon R Shooting Brake with more power, more comfort, and less miles for less than half the price of that cosworth and have enough change to put a deposit down on a house.
It’s probably not going to turn the same heads the Sierra would, but It will still turn head and still be on the driveway when I wake up in the morning. Not only that but id dispute anyone who tried to claim the Sierra was a nicer car.

I think you are probably missing the point of people buying an older car, be it a high performance option of the day or a cheap runaround. As this is a fiat forum compare the old fiat 500 to the new one. The new would be cheaper (remember restoration costs ) faster and more comfortable, yet people still buy and love the old one.
It’s a bit like a good quality mechanical watch. There are much cheaper quarts ones around that would probably be as accurate timekeeping wise but there still is a huge market for mechanical watches.
Joy of ownership, something different to own and drive that has character, a different driving experience, satisfaction of preserving something that is part of our motoring history. Most owners will have different reasons to buy and own something older but it would be a sad world if these cars were left to rot.
I’ve never got past the whale tail looks of the sierra so I wouldn’t want to buy that but if I was in the market for another performance car and it was a choice between my old RS 3100 or the new RS focus I would choose the former even though the focus is faster, handles better, better interior and cheaper. So much more exclusive with a much more interesting/ involving driving experience than something controlled by a computer chip.
Classic car racing is doing well so there must be a lot of like minded people that enjoy driving and owning these slow old cars rather than the ones with the newer cutting edge tech.

 

[Cornish Ian]

I think you are probably missing the point of people buying an older car, be it a high performance option of the day or a cheap runaround. As this is a fiat forum compare the old fiat 500 to the new one. The new would be cheaper (remember restoration costs ) faster and more comfortable, yet people still buy and love the old one.
It’s a bit like a good quality mechanical watch. There are much cheaper quarts ones around that would probably be as accurate timekeeping wise but there still is a huge market for mechanical watches.
Joy of ownership, something different to own and drive that has character, a different driving experience, satisfaction of preserving something that is part of our motoring history. Most owners will have different reasons to buy and own something older but it would be a sad world if these cars were left to rot.
I’ve never got past the whale tail looks of the sierra so I wouldn’t want to buy that but if I was in the market for another performance car and it was a choice between my old RS 3100 or the new RS focus I would choose the former even though the focus is faster, handles better, better interior and cheaper. So much more exclusive with a much more interesting/ involving driving experience than something controlled by a computer chip.
Classic car racing is doing well so there must be a lot of like minded people that enjoy driving and owning these slow old cars rather than the ones with the newer cutting edge tech.

QUARTZ ( I blame auto correct, my story and I’m sticking to it)

 

[The Panda Nut]

I think its all very sad that people have to have these large powerful cars in an attempt to get a thrill. There's sure a place for such cars where big distances are involved, theres no substitute for arriving in good condition after 500+ mile journies. For having fun however it doesnt cut it, and, just encourages the unskilled to cause trouble as very high speed and thuggish tailgating etc. Im with the rest of you here, in the James May school of thinking. Small engine thin tyres is where the fun lives, With a basically competent little car like the Panda and with the shouty twinair engine driving can be fun wihtout being ridiculous. ANd with the 82HP "90HP" engine you can still get along quite quick enough. Having been held up by a Range Rover for 50 miles in snow in 2018 i think the Panda 4x4 can rest its case.

 

[vexorg]

Im with the rest of you here, in the James May school of thinking

Bit of a misconception, even james may loves fast cars. And probably for the same reason as I would, it the engineering and fixing , tweaking and getting them all running perfect. More rewarding on a sporty car that you 'll love than a run of the mill car - to me anyway.

 

[bugsymike]

Bit of a misconception, even james may loves fast cars. And probably for the same reason as I would, it the engineering and fixing , tweaking and getting them all running perfect. More rewarding on a sporty car that you 'll love than a run of the mill car - to me anyway.

Old high performance cars driven at the limit where safe obviously with that beautiful sounding exhaust note, modern cars may be twice as fast, but just not the same.
Years ago I saw an advert for two old Allard J2s for less than £100, I always kick my self for not following up on that.
Recently I saw a uTube video of one racing similar age cars, I think it was at Laguna Seca ? Spelling probably wrong , but the sound of that old side valve V8 being raced on the limit was fantastic, it didn't win but not for want of trying.
This is one at Monterey ...

 

[AndyRKett]

I think you are probably missing the point of people buying an older car, be it a high performance option of the day or a cheap runaround.

I thought I’d replied to this, but just realised it never posted.

No I am not missing the point of people buying old cars. There are many old cars I would have in my garage funds permitting, but a Sierra Cosworth wouldn’t be anywhere on that list.

Out of a list of warm fords someone asked which I’d have and the Sierra would never be my choice, I just don’t get excited by them.
To me something like a Focus RS presents a far more interesting car and in time is likely to be more rare and valuable given time.

just because you may not agree with me, doesn’t mean I don’t understand why people do want these old cars.

Old high performance cars driven at the limit where safe obviously with that beautiful sounding exhaust note, modern cars may be twice as fast, but just not the same.

this is really subjective, there is no formula to what makes a car sound good, a prime example of this would be the new electric abarth 500 which plays an engine sound out loud to be heard by anyone around it, what’s the point, firstly with it being electric, secondly from what I’ve heard it’s a bloody horrible sound and I’d have that turned off straight away.

In fact many modern cars play a sound out loud to make them sound better than they would normally. The Golf R does this yet it’s a high performance car, it doesn’t need to play silly sounds to make it go quick.

The sounds isn’t what makes the car perform well, there are many high performance cars that make very little sound. There are many cars that completely lack any real power but through lack of exhaust or refinement, make a lot of noise.

What one person thinks is a good noise others will think is just noise,

The main point here is we are all different, we all like different things.

 

[bugsymike]

I thought I’d replied to this, but just realised it never posted.

No I am not missing the point of people buying old cars. There are many old cars I would have in my garage funds permitting, but a Sierra Cosworth wouldn’t be anywhere on that list.

Out of a list of warm fords someone asked which I’d have and the Sierra would never be my choice, I just don’t get excited by them.
To me something like a Focus RS presents a far more interesting car and in time is likely to be more rare and valuable given time.

just because you may not agree with me, doesn’t mean I don’t understand why people do want these old cars.

this is really subjective, there is no formula to what makes a car sound good, a prime example of this would be the new electric abarth 500 which plays an engine sound out loud to be heard by anyone around it, what’s the point, firstly with it being electric, secondly from what I’ve heard it’s a bloody horrible sound and I’d have that turned off straight away.

In fact many modern cars play a sound out loud to make them sound better than they would normally. The Golf R does this yet it’s a high performance car, it doesn’t need to play silly sounds to make it go quick.

The sounds isn’t what makes the car perform well, there are many high performance cars that make very little sound. There are many cars that completely lack any real power but through lack of exhaust or refinement, make a lot of noise.

What one person thinks is a good noise others will think is just noise,

The main point here is we are all different, we all like different things.

I agree Andy, several manufacturers have realised their car exhaust note doesn't appeal to their customer base and so mistakenly put out artificial noises.
In the past an open exhaust of a tuned length was a essential part of gaining maximum performance, there was a calculation, on the length from the the exhaust valve to the end of the open pipe. Also in the late 1960s I raced Class 4 Villiers 197cc Karts and the design of the expansion box exhaust and the small outlet created the best scavenging to increase performance. Consequently those and the four stroke equivalents had a loud and unrestricted noise and were an excepted part of going to any race meeting, which proves nostalgic to some of us.
It is in the "ear" of the beholder, yesterday walking with my grand daughter a young lad on a moped passed by with a "altered" exhaust which to him must have sounded like he was a racer, but to passers by it was an annoying sound that took too long to go away due to the true performance of his steed .
Engine design improvements and regulations have changed over the years and I would say when F1/Grand Prix cars were changed to reflect that, it did spoil the pleasure for a some people.
I suppose the problem of nostalgic "wrinkly's" will go away eventually as more of us step into the path of silent electric cars in our dotage .

 

[Cornish Ian]

I thought I’d replied to this, but just realised it never posted.

No I am not missing the point of people buying old cars. There are many old cars I would have in my garage funds permitting, but a Sierra Cosworth wouldn’t be anywhere on that list.

Out of a list of warm fords someone asked which I’d have and the Sierra would never be my choice, I just don’t get excited by them.
To me something like a Focus RS presents a far more interesting car and in time is likely to be more rare and valuable given time.

just because you may not agree with me, doesn’t mean I don’t understand why people do want these old cars.

this is really subjective, there is no formula to what makes a car sound good, a prime example of this would be the new electric abarth 500 which plays an engine sound out loud to be heard by anyone around it, what’s the point, firstly with it being electric, secondly from what I’ve heard it’s a bloody horrible sound and I’d have that turned off straight away.

In fact many modern cars play a sound out loud to make them sound better than they would normally. The Golf R does this yet it’s a high performance car, it doesn’t need to play silly sounds to make it go quick.

The sounds isn’t what makes the car perform well, there are many high performance cars that make very little sound. There are many cars that completely lack any real power but through lack of exhaust or refinement, make a lot of noise.

What one person thinks is a good noise others will think is just noise,

The main point here is we are all different, we all like different things.

I agree more or less with most of this, not sure you would like the early rs focus though, much like my old 1965 Mini Cooper s in handling / torque steer. The modern focus is far more competent but in my view loses a bit of character because of it.
If you ever get the chance try one of the earlier RWD fords like the RS200 and I think you might understand the attraction then.

Mike beat me to this but a tuned exhaust has an effect on engine characteristics, it can shift power and torque up or down the rev range. I imagine a quiet exhaust on the golf you mentioned would have a detrimental effect on its performance as there is a good chance it would have dropped the high end powper.
I agree on the 1.1 Saxo with the drainpipe exhaust though. Just noise and probably slower as it has destroyed any tuned exhaust effect it ever had originally.

 

[vexorg]

If you ever get the chance try one of the earlier RWD fords like the RS200 and I think you might understand the attraction then.

The RS200 is my all time favourite ford, 4 wheel drive, group B supercar, 1.8 turbo and 650bhp (in race form). Pity it wiped out the spectators in Portugal, death nail for the car after that.

 

[Cornish Ian]

The RS200 is my all time favourite ford, 4 wheel drive, group B supercar, 1.8 turbo and 650bhp (in race form). Pity it wiped out the spectators in Portugal, death nail for the car after that.

Yes the RS200 is very impressive and so rare. As you say it’s got a lot to answer for though.
In my younger days I would have loved to have had a go in one but too old and slow to do it justice now, even if I had the chance.
I did actually mean Andy should try the RS2000 rather than the 200. Amazing what difference a 0 makes. Perhaps proof readIng is something I should focus on.

Going back to James May (I’m sure you know this ) he had a string of Ferraris 308, 430, 458,458 laFerrari. 911 and no doubt other quick cars. I suspect “Captain Slow“ was more for the benefit of the top gear program than anything else.

 

[AndyRKett]

I agree more or less with most of this, not sure you would like the early rs focus though, much like my old 1965 Mini Cooper s in handling / torque steer. The modern focus is far more competent but in my view loses a bit of character because of it.
If you ever get the chance try one of the earlier RWD fords like the RS200 and I think you might understand the attraction then.

I’m gonna assume you mean the RS2000, rather than than the 4WD RS200? Also no one is going to let me loose in an RS200.
I have driven many old Fords including RWD versions. The Capri, early Escorts, Cortina‘s Sierras and Granada’s. Yes these old cars have “character“ but they don’t really do it for me. Especially the 4 cylinder varieties.

If I were to be spending 50 - 100K on some old classic car I would want something a bit more special than an old 4 cylinder Ford, and to be fair I would argue that their ”character“ comes from the RWD of which there were many more RWD cars Than just a hand full of 70s and 80s fords.

You also don’t need a big engine In a RWD car for it to have character, or be fun. But too much ‘character’ and ‘fun’, combined with a car build out of mostly rusted thin metal, results in a car that will put you in a hedge in no time at all, and the car will offer no protection to the occupants.
Even the Greatest Drivers have serious or even fatal accidents.

So you spend £50k+ on some old car then spend the next few years nursing it around the roads to keep it in one piece, Then later you resort to only getting it out of the garage to clean it, and then put it back again to keep it pristine, ultimately selling it on for someone else to “enjoy“

I’d rather have something younger, faster and that isn’t to prescious that can be thrown round a track or take a knock without major concern, Or something that is built to drive Around slowly and be appreciated, like an old classic Bentley.

Honestly why buy an old sierra, when you could have a Bentley for the same money, or an Aston Martin, or a Porsche 911. For the price of the RS500, you could have some really high end cars.… hence why the only people buying old cars like that for +£100k are putting them in heated storage facilities, waiting for them to go up in value and selling them on to another collector.

 

[AndyRKett]

In the past an open exhaust of a tuned length was a essential part of gaining maximum performance, there was a calculation, on the length from the the exhaust valve to the end of the open pipe. Also in the late 1960s I raced Class 4 Villiers 197cc Karts and the design of the expansion box exhaust and the small outlet created the best scavenging to increase performance. Consequently those and the four stroke equivalents had a loud and unrestricted noise and were an excepted part of going to any race meeting, which proves nostalgic to some of us.
It is in the "ear" of the beholder,

Mike beat me to this but a tuned exhaust has an effect on engine characteristics, it can shift power and torque up or down the rev range. I imagine a quiet exhaust on the golf you mentioned would have a detrimental effect on its performance as there is a good chance it would have dropped the high end powper.
I agree on the 1.1 Saxo with the drainpipe exhaust though. Just noise and probably slower as it has destroyed any tuned exhaust effect it ever had originally.

If you want to get nostalgic about some old 1.4 carb engine, which has been carfully fettled to get the Most out of the carb and then matched with the perfectly tuned exhaust and air filter to again gain the most from the engine, yes I get why people like to play with these things to get the most.

But since the 90s and fuel injection and catalytic converters, this level of tuning for road going cars has long since gone.

Most new cars such as the Golf R are high performance engines but still massively under tuned to what they can achieve with some software. But they still require catalytic converters and silences to meet the legal requirements.

therefore a highly tuned “great sounding engine” in 1978 would never pass muster these days, but then also modern engines are so much more powerful to the extent than a 70s V8 might only have 150hp, where as now a 1.0 3 cylinder petrol car has can have 100+ hp.
The power output achieved by the highly tuned Cosworths of the era, are massively exceeded by a lot of average family cars these days.

take a 224Hp Sierra Cosworth, fit a massive turbo, new injectors, reinforced internals in the engine. better breathing exhaust and you have a car that might hit 400 maybe even 500hp… back in the 80s or 90s you’d have spent tens of thousands of pounds and many many hours of engineering to reach these levels of power.

Take a modern Audi RS3 and you start with 400bhp. A 5 minute tweak with a computer and you have 500hp…..

The piped in sound is because people have some idea that a 400bhp car should sound a certain way, because of “nostalgia” but honestly they don’t need to sound like that these dayS a 400bhp car is a much quieter and more comfortable affair than the screaming over tuned and highly strung engines of the 70s and early 80s.

 

[Cornish Ian]

If you want to get nostalgic about some old 1.4 carb engine, which has been carfully fettled to get the Most out of the carb and then matched with the perfectly tuned exhaust and air filter to again gain the most from the engine, yes I get why people like to play with these things to get the most.

But since the 90s and fuel injection and catalytic converters, this level of tuning for road going cars has long since gone.

Most new cars such as the Golf R are high performance engines but still massively under tuned to what they can achieve with some software. But they still require catalytic converters and silences to meet the legal requirements.

therefore a highly tuned “great sounding engine” in 1978 would never pass muster these days, but then also modern engines are so much more powerful to the extent than a 70s V8 might only have 150hp, where as now a 1.0 3 cylinder petrol car has can have 100+ hp.
The power output achieved by the highly tuned Cosworths of the era, are massively exceeded by a lot of average family cars these days.

take a 224Hp Sierra Cosworth, fit a massive turbo, new injectors, reinforced internals in the engine. better breathing exhaust and you have a car that might hit 400 maybe even 500hp… back in the 80s or 90s you’d have spent tens of thousands of pounds and many many hours of engineering to reach these levels of power.

Take a modern Audi RS3 and you start with 400bhp. A 5 minute tweak with a computer and you have 500hp…..

The piped in sound is because people have some idea that a 400bhp car should sound a certain way, because of “nostalgia” but honestly they don’t need to sound like that these dayS a 400bhp car is a much quieter and more comfortable affair than the screaming over tuned and highly strung engines of the 70s and early 80s.

To clarify I was actually referring to manufacturers designing / tuning an exhaust taking into account power, torque and sound, which they still do even these days with cats and fuel injection.
There are also specialist companies out there who design and manufacture systems that can improve on standard performance especially if they don’t adhere to all the constraints that manufacturers might work with.

 

[AndyRKett]

To clarify I was actually referring to manufacturers designing / tuning an exhaust taking into account power, torque and sound, which they still do even these days with cats and fuel injection.
There are also specialist companies out there who design and manufacture systems that can improve on standard performance especially if they don’t adhere to all the constraints that manufacturers might work with.

I’m a little confused by this statement as everything that has proceeded this in this conversation is the fact that manufacturers don’t tweak and tune for the perfect engine note, either because lower powered cars don’t need it or in higher performance cars, they just pipe artificial engine noise in, and the main reasons for this being that owners expect their car to sound a certain way if it’s high performance, even if that’s not needed, several manufacturers Offer some sort of gadget to open up valves In the exhaust to make it loud and angry when you want to, and shut it up when you’ve had enough or developed a head ache.

Many purists have the artificial systems turned off so they can hear the real engine noise, even if that noise is a lot quieter and calmer than the piped sound

 

[Cornish Ian]

I’m a little confused by this statement as everything that has proceeded this in this conversation is the fact that manufacturers don’t tweak and tune for the perfect engine note, either because lower powered cars don’t need it or in higher performance cars, they just pipe artificial engine noise in, and the main reasons for this being that owners expect their car to sound a certain way if it’s high performance, even if that’s not needed, several manufacturers Offer some sort of gadget to open up valves In the exhaust to make it loud and angry when you want to, and shut it up when you’ve had enough or developed a head ache.

Many purists have the artificial systems turned off so they can hear the real engine noise, even if that noise is a lot quieter and calmer than the piped sound

Exhausts are tuned for power and torque which can improved or even moved up or down the rev range but think of noise as a byproduct.
Many factors involved in exhaust design but the aim is that it should help extract or scavenge gases from the engine. If you use a silencer that is really efficient at noise reduction then chances are it will cause some back pressure which is bad for gas flow.
Your Golf R doesn’t need to play silly sounds I agree and it could be made quieter with a more restricted silencing system but it would lose some performance all other things being equal. Some of these valves you mention apart from changing exhaust note bypass cats or divert