Technical Worrying Discussion With My Dealer

[306maxi]

I don't have a problem getting what I want done at a price I'm happy with. This is being done by an independent to Fiat specs.

The point of this post wasn't price. They aren't pricey really, are they? Even at full dealer prices a 500 service is only approximately 50% of the price of my watche's services (although they are less frequent).

The issue was that to match price the dealer misleadingly cut what was being offered (claiming a filter being dropped saved £100, before dropping in the gem that the brake fluid wasn't included - I wonder what else they planned to skip), then went on to suggest I could skip the fluid to keep it cheap!

Anyway, it is now booked in for everything it needs with someone who didn't try to pull the wool over my eyes.

My point is that you need to be upfront with what you want and be strong about it, you need to show that you know EXACTLY what you want and before you've asked for a price, you need to tell them what you've already been offered (this means calling the independent first!!!!). If you call up and say "Hi I'd like a service please, how much?" you're inviting the person on the other end of the line to try and take advantage of you. I used to work in one of the most mundane and boring jobs known to man, I used to be a call centre operator for a major credit card company and people would call up to do balance transfers and sometimes they would have promotional rates which could be applied to their account (like 0%) yet some wouldn't even ask...... sometimes they'd have some ridiculous APR and I could offer them 0% but they just didn't ask and there was just nothing I could say. It's not up to the business to offer you the cheapest rate, it's not how dealerships, credit card companies, Comet or Currys work. They operate on the basis that there will be enough ignorant people dumb enough to pay what they're asking and this makes them a lot of money, some people are just too embarassed to ask and these people will get ripped off too.

How many people do you think call up for the cost of a service and simply say yes when they're told the cost? The dealer is going to make a lot more money from these dimwits than it is going to by lowering their prices for everyone.

I challenge anyone to follow my little script

Hi, I've got a 2009 1.2 500 Lounge. It was last serviced at X miles on X date and I know it doesn't need a service yet, but I want to bring it in early for a service because I intend to keep it for a long time. I know that the X service takes X hours (in your service book!) and I'll be supplying all of the parts for this including oil, brake fluid, plugs, air, oil and pollen filters, all of which are genuine. I've spoken to my local independent and they charge X pounds per hour. Obviously I want to keep the costs down but if possible I'd like the car to have a full dealer service history. Will you price match my independent?

and not come away with some kind of result. If you're feeling cheeky you could even turn down their first offer if you think you can squeeze them a bit more.

 

[306maxi]

Maxi, I quite agree with your approach on how to handle dealers, however my experience is that certain dealers will still try and mug you even if you specify precisely what you want.

What ever happened to just offering your customers a fair price?

It really gets my goat; you see the same thing with car insurance renewals. Yes, if you do your homework then you won't get shafted. But why not just offer a decent price to start with?

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Because if you can make a shedload from some dimwit who just allows his insurance to renew via DD then surely that's better than giving away that juicy profit.

 

[GrandeGuy]

It's down to dealers are scared, and so they should be, money is getting more and more tight, not as many people are buying new cars or getting them done by main dealers. Couple of my friends who work at dealers are doubling up on cars or standing around, there is just nothing coming in anymore.
People are seeking more small garages.

 

[306maxi]

I got so riled up reading about that pollen filter crud, I just sent an email to my local filter dealer requesting part number and price. He responded within 10 mins. £21.88 (inc vat) for the filter. You can get them cheaper than that though. I haven't checked out Ford's price for the pollen filter for the KA. I understand it will fit but it is probably tied to the Fiat price anyway.

For that price you can get a fancypantsactivatedcarbon one!
http://seekpart24.com/febi/filter-interior-air-34780?c=100263&at=19093

Less for a genuine one
http://shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=3678&sku=9961

Even less
http://seekpart24.com/febi/filter-interior-air-27873?c=100263&at=19093

I know that no one will listen to me, but if you order 3 services worth of oil and filters from Shop4Parts you can save yourself an absolute packet. I've worked out the cost of my parts and it comes to about £65 per service for oil and plugs as well as air, oil and pollen filters. Sure you end up spending about £200 on consumables, but the savings are more than worth it. I saved ~£100 on my first service and ~£220 on my second service AND I have a full dealer service history. In two years my savings have more than paid for the parts I bought and I'm about £100 up already and I've still got a service worth of parts left......

 

[306maxi]

A great way of buying service parts for your 500 and knowing that they're genuine

https://www.fiatforum.com/souls/267950-fiat-500-service-pack-s.html

 

[TrevC]

It's the brake fluid bit that irritates me - if it needs changing every 2 years then just include it in the quote and do it! Mercedes didn't give us the option when we had an A-Class - it was changed at the second service, which cost £200 (although that was 4 years ago.)
I know that Ford also have an "optional brake fluid change" policy too.
The pollen filter change cost will depend on how buried it is. I don't know where it is on the 500.

 

[jrkitching]

It's the brake fluid bit that irritates me - if it needs changing every 2 years then just include it in the quote and do it! Mercedes didn't give us the option when we had an A-Class - it was changed at the second service, which cost £200 (although that was 4 years ago.)
I know that Ford also have an "optional brake fluid change" policy too.
The pollen filter change cost will depend on how buried it is. I don't know where it is on the 500.

Current good practice is to renew brake fluid on all cars after 2 years, irrespective of mileage. The fluid itself has a 3yr shelf life from date of manufacture, which will be printed or stamped on the original container.

I can understand your irritation regarding the cost - you can buy a 500ml bottle of Comma Dot4 Fluid (which meets FIAT specifications) for less than £3 retail.

 

[Neil Surrey Labs]

Be careful of independents.
I had the wife's Volvo serviced at an independent. It wasn't very cheap either and when the car came back the service light stayed on annoyingly. So i booked the car into a place that has the correct diagnostic computer and got it all sorted out properly, they also found that the oil level was too high so had to drain some out and that a pushrod for the swirl pot (?) had come adrift and put it back into place. Their cost for fixing all the stupidity was a quite reasonable £50 so I'll be getting the car serviced there in future!

 

[jrkitching]

Be careful of independents.

Be careful of all garages .

They range from c**p to brilliant; there are some first-class independents out there, and some excellent main dealers, too - but I've seen & heard many, many stories of shoddy workmanship & extortionate pricing from indys & franchised outlets alike.

 

[TrevC]

I wasn't aware that brake fluid had a shelf life in an unopened tin. I know it's hygroscopic, and I wouldn't want to risk water boiling in the fluid during an emergency stop, but I've often wondered how the water gets into it. The only exposure to atmosphere is surely via the breather hole in the reservoir cap - how much water vapour can be absorbed through that? Incidentally, as the 500 has a hydraulic clutch, presumably that fluid needs replacing too, or can that be left until problems occur as it is less safety-critical?

 

[loveshandbags]

I wasn't aware that brake fluid had a shelf life in an unopened tin. I know it's hygroscopic, and I wouldn't want to risk water boiling in the fluid during an emergency stop, but I've often wondered how the water gets into it. The only exposure to atmosphere is surely via the breather hole in the reservoir cap - how much water vapour can be absorbed through that? Incidentally, as the 500 has a hydraulic clutch, presumably that fluid needs replacing too, or can that be left until problems occur as it is less safety-critical?

In my layman's understanding of brake fluid - it absorbs mositure over time. By having moisture in the fluid it lowers its boiling point. I very much doubt that an emergency stop would be affected if you have not had repeated stops beforehand. The problem with mositure in the brake fluid as pointed out by bgunn is corrosion 'inside' the braking system and the 'fade' problem would become an issue.
In relation to 'how does the air get in' - if you think of an sealant tube that was once opened and then 'resealed' after a few months the stuff inside goes off. Anything opened has a shelf life. If a sealed brake fluid container has a shelf life it shouldn't matter that a few months on the 'shelf' before its used would have any impact.

 

[jrkitching]

I wasn't aware that brake fluid had a shelf life in an unopened tin.

Have a read of the attached datasheet for Comma Dot 4 brake fluid. Other manufacturers will likely have a similar warning regarding the expiry date.

I know it's hygroscopic, and I wouldn't want to risk water boiling in the fluid during an emergency stop, but I've often wondered how the water gets into it. The only exposure to atmosphere is surely via the breather hole in the reservoir cap - how much water vapour can be absorbed through that?

You might be surprised just how quickly water gets absorbed. Your brake fluid will most likely be right down to its wet BP within 3-6 months. Track day drivers commonly flush the system before an event & I believe that some circuit owners insist on this.

However, I suspect you'd have to try really hard to boil even saturated fluid on a 1.2 hatch in standard tune - with solid discs, the brakes will fade a long time before that happens. The real issue is corrosion protection - the absorbed water causes the steel components in the brake system to rust, and this rust gets into suspension in the fluid & causes rapid seal wear. Once this happens, it's only a matter of time before the calipers & wheel cylinders start to leak. There are corrosion inhibitors in the fluid, but there is a limit to the protection they offer and they, too, degrade with time.

Changing the fluid at (or even before) the recommended interval is an investment in the long term reliability & performance of the brakes. The real benefits will be felt once the car is 6+ yrs old, in the £££ you don't have to spend fixing prematurely worn hydraulic components.

Realistically, an older cars running on degraded brake fluid is far more likely to fail its MOT due to leaking cylinders than it is to go through a hedge because the fluid's boiled.

Incidentally, as the 500 has a hydraulic clutch, presumably that fluid needs replacing too, or can that be left until problems occur as it is less safety-critical?

Yes it does. The hydraulic clutch does far more work than the brakes & gear changing problems caused by leaking master & slave cylinders are common. It's also considered good practice to renew the slave hydraulics whenever you change the clutch.

 

[loveshandbags]

...You might be surprised just how quickly water gets absorbed. Your brake fluid will most likely be right down to its wet BP within 3-6 months. Track day drivers commonly flush the system before an event & I believe that some circuit owners insist on this...

Track guys tend to use a 'Racing brake fluid' which which has a higher boiling point and is more hydroscopic. There also appears to be some new developments...
Ate also do a Dot 4 specification fluid called SL6. This fluid is fully compliant with all the specifications of Dot 4 but is a lower viscosity fluid which is suited to brake systems where ABS, DSC or ESP has many very fast moving parts of low mass and inertia such as miniature solenoid valves.

Our NCT tests (similar) to your MOT tests are getting tougher on the 'brake test' and here is an individual who failed on brake fluid contamination. A car that I had lying up had fierce trouble on the handbrake balance test and it involved 2 re-tests to get it to pass. There has been 'talk' about doing a 'dip test' for moisture content on the brake fluid but there is an issue with testers being allowed to open the cap on the reservoir tank. Re opening the cap - it is probably something that you shouldn't do - hence the reason what it's transparent - but if you have to 'top up' you'd have no choice.
After getting my own done I would be of the opinion to get the whole brake fluid change done at least once before the 3 years are up and to ensure that all the old brake fluid is flushed out by a 'reputable' garage.