I agree for the most part of what you said, but disagree with the road statement. There
are dangerous roads (adverse cambers, bends that initially appear to be continuous & sweeping, actually having varying additional curves & cambers) & especially dangerous, poorly maintained road surfaces.
Yes, you should always be aware of things like that, but no ones infalable.
I`ve spun twice in my driving career, once in an 85` Senator CD in 1999 on a country B road in damp (not wet) conditions after being suddenly presented with an uphill 80 degree left hand bend with no warning (national speed limit, no sign indicating a bend leading up to it & no chevrons/arrows on it, the hill meant you couldnt see it till you were on top of it, there was nothing but fields on both sides, no trees, no streetlamps etc to warn you the road was changing direction either).
Didnt hit anything & no other drivers around.
And in aprox 1995 in a 91` Uno 45 on an 80 degree right hand bend that I`d been past 1000 times, but happened to have diesel spilt on the wet (& worn smooth) road surface that day....
Managed to lightly hit 3 corners on the Uno after spinning 360 degrees, hitting a brick wall/plant pot on 1 side & railings on the other. No other cars involved & no injuries (2 passengers in the car). I fixed the car within 48 hours.
You will argue that the fault lies with me for not anticipating the above, but theres no doubt in my mind that the quality & signage issues in question were a contibuting factor...
I`ll give you another example off the top of my head. On the way to my parents theres a section of road. There is a slight right hand bend, maybe 10-12 degree`s of bend. Theres a very slight adverse camber. Right on the outer edge of this bend is a metal BT/gas/Water board services cover. It`s not particulary low below the surface of the road, maybe 1/8th of an inch.
It doesnt matter what car your in or if your doing 25mph in the dry, as soon as the tyres contact the cover (which is unavoidable), your tyres will skip, the rear then skips out further because of the shifting balance (as you`ve only just started turning the steering to go into the slight bend). This results in your concentration being diverted from the road ahead for a split second & you having to correct. Thats in the dry & without you having to brake for anyone turning in or out of the right hand turn, bus stop & zebra crossing just ahead of it...
The road also becomes narrower beyond it & the much used road on the right has such an accute angle on it that people often have to cross the white lines to turn left out of it.
I`ve seen several head on crashes here over the years that I can only put it down to that cover...
Heres a pic.. its an innocent looking road & you cant actually make out the cover in question, but its roughly where the Vectra & Polo are...
Also notice the high walls / shrubs / tree`s obstructing the view of people exiting their drives drives on the right. This forces people to come quite a way out of their drive before they can see properly (its a fairly busy road).
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...=VMcUCd-InnReKnRGTEYLQQ&cbp=12,157.95,,1,7.55
Theres many examples of this & also poorly placed road furnature + excessive (& occasionally conflicting) signage all over the country.
Everybody's put some good points up here, so I'll have a go at answering them, partly from the Devil's Advocate point of view, but, hopefully with valid reasoning behind them. Most motorcyclists are better than car drivers at spotting road defects, such as sunken manhole covers or patchy road surfaces, maybe car drivers need to improve in that matter. Bends do thighten, it may be because the original roas was laid down many years ago before modern civil engineering practices were in use, or it could be because the bend is on a hill and to make it more predictable would make the road more difficult/expensive to build, but for whatever reason a thightening bend is a fact of life and needs to be dealt with.
Surely, all the keen drivers on here are familiar with the "Vanishing Point" principle? Although it's not infallible it's still a good way of judging a bend. What about the old motor racing maxim of "Slow in fast out."
There was certainly a time in the not to distant past when if on a road, whatever the speed limit, if you came across a bend with no warning signs, then it was a reasonable assumption that you should be able to negotiate it at whatever the prevailing speed limit is. However, with the financial constraints on Council's (especially County Councils) and the Highways Agency it's becoming more and more likely that road signs won't be replaced as they fall down. But, even notwithstanding that, how do you know the sign
wasn't knocked down last night. Ultimately, it's the driver that's responsible for the safe conduct of the vehicle.
Very well put mate!
I realise that after rolling a MK2 UT in Jan 2008
Lift-off over-steer at 60mph, tried to grab 2nd but ran out of right hand steering lock because I was going round a left corner and ultimately time!
It was around 3-4sec from sideways to looking out the front window laying on the passenger door card as I wasn't wearing a seatbelt
The car rolled over 5 thick wooden posts and some how around the lamp post but the lamp post wasn't damaged?
The police/FB/AMB were all very confused to say the least.
Pic:
I though I'd highlight the points made in the thread and yes also agree on the conditions and weather conditions!
For the "Youngsters" (I'm only 24 myself!) that are scanning through this, wear your seat belt and chill out on the road!
You do not want to do what I did and that was assume it will be ok if something goes array because when it does you have little or no control over the forthcoming events!
Sorry for the Hi-jack Beard mate but I feel its relevant.
Delete if need be!
I don't want anyone to be under any illusion. There was very little difference between me and all the other young drivers, it's just that I was very keen on motor racing and was lucky enough to have a mate who raced in Clubmans and a neighbour's boyfriend who raced in saloons and F5000 so I was around a lot of driving theory and was able to spend quite a lot of time on tracks like
Oulton Park and Aintree. But I also read a lot of books about driving and learned about inertia and momentum. I also came under the influence of a family friend who was a Traffic Cop.
Also, driving a Viva with cross-ply tyres was a good insight into grip (or the lack of it) and terminal understeer. I also never wore a seat belt until it became law.
There's nothing to stop people going on a deserted industrial estate (or Supermarket car park) after a fall of snow and doing handbrake turns. But, just having a laugh isn't good enough. You need to feel what the car is doing through the proverbial seat of the pants. If you slide the car with the hand brake, once it starts to correct itself you can feel your body start to sit upright again. That's about the time you need to be taking the lock off. Most people who correct a skid wait until the car is facing in the right direction again before centering the steering, which is too late
i disagree, we have a bend near here that got resurfaced with crap stuff and every time it rained in the summer about 10 cars a day ( no exageration) would end up in a field, drivers of all ages an standards an soon as the surface was changed back to proper stuff no one came off again
also disagree with beard
A road set to 40 when it should not be due to various road conditions unless you have drove the read and know it you can not be expected to do 40 on it. a bad road has caught me out a few times never hit anything just lost all gearing and hit a few undesirables.
overall the road can be to blame hidden obstacles branches buses will fling at you.
(you must remember Year 7 when the first bus went down even a week on branches still was cracking bus windows)
overall a crap road surface well hidden with an wrong speed limit and many attention grabbbers = a bad road
in genral a road with a bad surface as dave says
If you don't have a clear view, slow down. There are loads of road signs partly obscured by bushes and trees. If your car goes off the road and you end up in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, no amount of compensation will make you think it was all worthwhile. Trust me, you'll look back and think:
"I wish I hadn't done that. I'd give anything to have that time over again."
my first ever vehicle on the road was a 1980-something honda XLR 125 with front and rear drums! i can honestly say i agree people need to drive such a thing to learn about road surfaces.
the brakes are what i could only describe now as pulling on a lever attached to a soggy weaterbix dont know how i survived them 2 years!
but anyway you forgot to blame ABS/traction control/power steering... all these things take away from cars road "feeling" and give a false sense of control/confidence
A mate of mine used to have a XL250. He used to call them porridge brakes. Your comment about a lack of feel in modern cars is spot on. On the odd occasion I take someone for driving lessons, when it comes to the Emergency Stop, although they are taught to do it in a car with ABS, I always make sure they understand how to carry one out without ABS, as most 17 year olds still have a first car without. The electric power steering on modern FIATs really doesn't do a driver any favours.
I'm with Daz and Dave.
Although ultimatly another factor I'll chuck in is Tyre quality. Be it age, tread, or both.
A good point, but ultimately it's down to the driver to check his/her tyres, as with every other aspect of the car.
I was travelling to Rugby the other day on the A426. I see a "National Speed Limit" sign, so I think... OK, it's 60mph, so lets build up speed; the next thing I know, there's one of those electric signs flashing at me saying "SLOW DOWN"
Why put a national speed limit sign there, if, a quarter of a mile down the road I'm going to have a thing flashing at me saying "SLOW DOWN" ?
I was doing around 55mph at the time, but seriously, what is the point in having one road sign contradicting the other within a couple of yards of each other?!?!
Seems a bit pointless to me, especially if it's activated below the prevailing speed limit. I'm sure there are things that are more worthy of the Council's finances.
I know this sounds a bit pompous, but, since passing my test in 1974, I've had one own-fault crash which was on the M6 at Keele Services where I ran into the back of another car. At the time I came up with lots of reasons why it wasn't my fault, but ultimately, it was nobody's fault but mine. That was in June 1979. A month later I got done for 45 in a 30 limit. Because of the licence endorsement procedure at the time, I got one for Driving Without Due Care and Attention (CD10), Endorsement and £100 fine and SP30 and £30 fine
which was a sobering experience as £30 was about a week's take home pay at the time. As you only needed 3 Endorsements to get a ban I had to take a long hard look at the way I drove, and apart from a couple of parking tickets,
i've not been done for a motoring offence since.
According to statistics, I should have had another one by now, but I try and keep my driving standards up, so, here's to another 30 years of incident free motoring. If I manage that I'll be a senile old fool by that time.
Alright, own up, who said I already was?
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