General TA on Motorway

[arorat]

Just got back from a 500 mile round trip to North West, I am pleasantly surprised (should I be ?). The TAs punchy little motor works well and returned 47mpg as indicated on the trip computer, I got bored of my 2nd petrol recipt and binned it so no idea how much I spent.

The upcoming 2000 mile trip to continent will be just fine

 

[loveshandbags]

Just got back from a 500 mile round trip to North West, I am pleasantly surprised (should I be ?). The TAs punchy little motor works well and returned 47mpg as indicated on the trip computer, I got bored of my 2nd petrol recipt and binned it so no idea how much I spent.

The upcoming 2000 mile trip to continent will be just fine

We need a bit more detail than that arorat. What was your average speed ? At what speed did it seem happiest at ?
And losing receipts - next you'll be telling us the TA needed 2L of oil.

 

[bgunn]

They're great little motors, especially when they free up after 1000 miles or more (I'm sure mine will get better still), I got an average of 38.9 when driving on Cornwall's hilly A and B roads, with plenty of full throttle hill pulls to really load the engine and help bed in the rings and bores properly. It wasn't hanging around either.

I got 42.8 (indicated) on the 270 odd mile drive home after a fill up, and I had it flat out (111 indicated on the GPS - on a private road of course!) which I held for a good four of five minutes, so I wasn't hanging about. I'm delighted with the car, it performed so damn well.

 

[loveshandbags]

They're great little motors, especially when they free up after 1000 miles or more (I'm sure mine will get better still), I got an average of 38.9 when driving on Cornwall's hilly A and B roads, with plenty of full throttle hill pulls to really load the engine and help bed in the rings and bores properly. It wasn't hanging around either.

I got 42.8 (indicated) on the 270 odd mile drive home after a fill up, and I had it flat out (111 indicated on the GPS - on a private road of course!) which I held for a good four of five minutes, so I wasn't hanging about. I'm delighted with the car, it performed so damn well.

That's very impressive for a 875cc. If your fifth gear has the same gearing as the sixth of the 1.4 you would have been around 5,000rpm so you weren't near the 'red line'.

 

[TrevC]

Bit more motorway feedback - went from Berkshire to Dorset for the day the other week. M3, then dual carriageway and A roads most of the way. Kept to an indicated 70 - 80 in the 70 limit bits, and up to the speed limit on other roads. Pootled around Swanage and Studland while there. Overall mpg for the day (200 miles or so) was 51.1, which I thought was pretty good. Very relaxed at motorway speeds, pulling just over 3000rpm. That little twin is one impressive motor.

 

[bgunn]

That's very impressive for a 875cc. If your fifth gear has the same gearing as the sixth of the 1.4 you would have been around 5,000rpm so you weren't near the 'red line'.

Indeed, although I notice the power tails off at 5k or so, the acceleration in the lower gears tails off at these revs. If the engine were tuned for power (which I suspect the 105hp one will be), then I guess the breathing will be improved , possibly with higher boost - it feels as if the boost is being modulated. I will definitely be interested to see what tuners achieve on the TA as time goes by, it's a cracker of an engine in my opinion..

 

[arorat]

We need a bit more detail than that arorat. What was your average speed ? At what speed did it seem happiest at ?
And losing receipts - next you'll be telling us the TA needed 2L of oil.

Michael you just want sensation well here it is unscripted;

left Surbiton late Fri for Liverpool, 4pm (4 hours late), M25 traffic (1st jam) to M40, mpg 39 ish... hit M40 and give some mad throttle to see if I can keep up with some other cars, I know it sounds childish but I think of 500 as a toy, so a bit surprised that it pulls well and gives a baby tiger growl (whatever that sounds like). You can get up to 80-90 (on private roads) easy in 4th then slip into 5th to use the power curve.

2nd jam, m5 joining m6 for 20 miles, 3rd jam stoke m6, 4th & 5th jam still on M6, 47mpg avg, avg speed 43 ish. I mean wtf, had I known it would take 5.5 hrs to do 240 miles I would have stayed at home.

Some more useless info; got to destination very late, but in comfort, met old friends the next day in Liverpool, played 2 rounds of golf next few days, great trip.

back on topic, the TA engine is fine and revs well, I am not car techy anymore but it seems power comes on around 3.5k to 4.5k and you can have some serious fun if driving by yourself with no crap in the back.

Using 4 & 5th is fine to lead or keep up with usual motorway contenders, obviously I know its no match if the 320 or M3 driver puts their foot down but we know all that.

Re: what speed is it happy at ? Speed is fine and will keep over 100 if required, but I will not try that in this country (I have had joys of motorbiking in Germany with a loose throttle hand). Can I change your question to "what power curve is it happy at?" 4k, but I would love to know the optimal power curve for the TA, and this is where you come into the picture Michael

 

[grimwau]

next you'll be telling us the TA needed 2L of oil.

Mine needed 2.5Ltrs, ......... and that was after just driving home on day of collection.

 

[TwinAir Newbie]

Am I the only one who has difficulty reading the oil level off the dipstick?

 

[jrkitching]

Am I the only one who has difficulty reading the oil level off the dipstick?

No. Modern synthetic oils are much harder to read than older types.

Wipe the whole dipstick before replacing it to take a reading. Then keep it vertical until you've taken it. That will help prevent the oil flowing back and messing up the result.

Hope this helps.

 

[loveshandbags]

Re: what speed is it happy at ? Speed is fine and will keep over 100 if required, but I will not try that in this country (I have had joys of motorbiking in Germany with a loose throttle hand). Can I change your question to "what power curve is it happy at?" 4k, but I would love to know the optimal power curve for the TA, and this is where you come into the picture Michael

This is an easier one to do for a 1.4 since there's plenty of information out there and I actually own one so I can test the theory. I have not been able to locate a graph for the TA showing the Torque curve but from what I have 'picked up' it's fairly flat from 1,900 rpm & only dropping of a bit (20%) with a pronounced drop off around 5,500rpm (from memory of the test drive)
I have wondered why the 64bhp model has not come out and I have a hunch that the TA in its current 'great' form is possible because of the Turbo. Take the Turbo out of the picture - and it is quite possible that the MA engine in its current tuned form will be limp. It would be interesting if the TA was given more boost then maybe it would be a proper performance engine and not trying to be 2 things.
From your motorbike days you'll remember the rev line on the 2 cylinder - most of them would sit up in the dizzy heights of 8,500 rpm. But for driveability the torque curve has changed and this may well be the price that has been paid with the TA's economy figures.

As regards your question on the 'optimal power curve' of the TA - it doesn't have a sweet spot like the NA 1.4 - but a flat line from 1,900rpm through until possibly 4,750rpm. It seems to have a diesel torque curve coming on early with no top end. Bgunn's private road test with his GPS figure certainly shows the potential in the MA engine where he exceeded the manufacturer's quoted figures.

 

[pearce_jj]

I have a hunch that the TA in its current 'great' form is possible because of the Turbo

Of course it is!!

 

[TrevC]

Re. Dipstick reading on Twinair.

Since the dipstick is a bit like a lawnmower's in that it is built into the oil filler cap, does anyone know whether the true reading is obtained by just dipping it as far as it will go, or screwing it in then unscrewing it to read it? The handbook is not specific, and I'm concerned about potential cross-thread and plastic thread wear issues from regular oil checks. Mine reads about halfway between the limits by just dipping after 5000 miles btw. It's easier now the oil's a bit dirty.

 

[loveshandbags]

Of course it is!!

It prompts the question does an engine in NA have to be great to achieve greatness ?
I would not expect much of a Twin Air 64bhp or a MJ (55 bhp ?) with the lack of Turbo.
But will all the awards that the Multi-air has got - the TA in 2011 & the 1.4 MA Turbo in 2010 (they claimed 20% more efficiency in turbo form over the 10% in efficiency in NA) I was taken aback with the following figures...
170bhp. 42mpg urban, 66 mpg @ 56mph, Combined 54mpg & 121 grs/km in the new 1.4 BB MultiAir TCT (known as DCT or DSG).
If this engine and gearbox was put in the 500 it would drop in the lower Band - the same as the 500 1.2
That is what I would call 'having your cake and eating it'.

Note the 2nd video covers Motorway driving and how the MA gets into a different mode...
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/06/28/484787.html

 

[arorat]

This is an easier one to do for a 1.4 since there's plenty of information out there and I actually own one so I can test the theory. I have not been able to locate a graph for the TA showing the Torque curve but from what I have 'picked up' it's fairly flat from 1,900 rpm & only dropping of a bit (20%) with a pronounced drop off around 5,500rpm (from memory of the test drive)
I have wondered why the 64bhp model has not come out and I have a hunch that the TA in its current 'great' form is possible because of the Turbo. Take the Turbo out of the picture - and it is quite possible that the MA engine in its current tuned form will be limp. It would be interesting if the TA was given more boost then maybe it would be a proper performance engine and not trying to be 2 things.
From your motorbike days you'll remember the rev line on the 2 cylinder - most of them would sit up in the dizzy heights of 8,500 rpm. But for driveability the torque curve has changed and this may well be the price that has been paid with the TA's economy figures.

As regards your question on the 'optimal power curve' of the TA - it doesn't have a sweet spot like the NA 1.4 - but a flat line from 1,900rpm through until possibly 4,750rpm. It seems to have a diesel torque curve coming on early with no top end. Bgunn's private road test with his GPS figure certainly shows the potential in the MA engine where he exceeded the manufacturer's quoted figures.

you are spot on... the TA works is 2 modes ECO and Turbo (normal).

For "when tired" driving ECO is perfect especially in city as the power curve is bought forward to around 15-1900rpm, the console requests upshift as soon as you hit 2000 or even earlier and the engine is limp - as to be expected.

With normal mode the curve goes back to 4500 or so and its a totally different engine.

Are you saying with the turbo they have gained as much as they could from the 2 pot ?

 

[loveshandbags]

you are spot on... the TA works is 2 modes ECO and Turbo (normal).

For "when tired" driving ECO is perfect especially in city as the power curve is bought forward to around 15-1900rpm, the console requests upshift as soon as you hit 2000 or even earlier and the engine is limp - as to be expected.

With normal mode the curve goes back to 4500 or so and its a totally different engine.

Are you saying with the turbo they have gained as much as they could from the 2 pot ?

If you look at the new MA Turbo in NA it is 105bhp and Turbo charged form 170bhp (this is on the Mito) so it has a charge factor of 1.1619
The TA in NA with 64bhp this factored up comes to 103.61bhp.
This is the quoted figure for for the Zagoto whenever it arrives.
Given the true Multi-air'ness' of the TA I get the impression that it could be boosted even more - the only downside being the gearbox. From another thread Grimwau is more knowledgeable on this than me I got the impression that the 1.4 MA was not an 'all new' design but a Multi-air head on a older block (could be wrong on this).
Quite a lot of ECU maps are retrading the boost in 1st gear (Porsche 911 turbo) is an example so you don't end up shredding gears - some say the clutch will go first (my experience in an RS Turbo - gearbox went first and on a MX5 Turbo - gearbox had a short life).
TBH I don't feel that a 2 cylinder engine is the right animal on the Motorway - boosting power to nearly twice its NA form will give it a short life. I'd prefer the comfort of the Mito 1.4 MA DCT where it should last 100,000miles.
Also Turbos in particular the IHI 3 on the A500 is only rated for 127bhp and yet because of stress testing it will take 160bhp. For the 695 the turbo is upgraded to IHI 4.
I don't know the model of Turbo on the TA but I reckon if you had it on the Autobann for an hour you'd find that the boost would retard reducing the power and it's overall life. I originally thought that the Turbo on the TA was a Variable Vane turbo - but it is a fixed geometry one - if cost was not an issue this would be room for improvement.
So the answer is YES. Another 18bhp+

 

[arorat]

TBH I don't feel that a 2 cylinder engine is the right animal on the Motorway - boosting power to nearly twice its NA form will give it a short life. I'd prefer the comfort of the Mito 1.4 MA DCT where it should last 100,000miles.
Also Turbos in particular the IHI 3 on the A500 is only rated for 127bhp and yet because of stress testing it will take 160bhp. For the 695 the turbo is upgraded to IHI 4.

Interesting point, but this would just mean replacing the turbo every 3/4 years (at a guess) if that were to fail, or is there fact that smaller engines tend to suffer in general with turbo ?

 

[306maxi]

Interesting point, but this would just mean replacing the turbo every 3/4 years (at a guess) if that were to fail, or is there fact that smaller engines tend to suffer in general with turbo ?

Nah. Our Subaru's engine has a 17 year old turbo on it which has NEVER received any turbo specific servicing and is still going strong after 200k plus miles. Manufacturing processes and tolerances have improved since the early 90's. IHI is a reputable brand, in fact it's the brand of turbo in the Subaru, I really doubt we're going to see regular turbo failures on twinairs unless people rag them from cold.

I don't agree with Multispoke about a 105bhp twinair having a short life, plenty of cars deliver 100bhp/litre+ and run reliably, I very much doubt Fiat will achieve this boost in power simply by putting a bigger turbo on.

I again point to our Subaru which even though they have well known issues when modified and running more than 300bhp, will run reliably at the standard power which is 98bhp/litre. Again, manufacturing processes have improved since the early 90's........

 

[loveshandbags]

Interesting point, but this would just mean replacing the turbo every 3/4 years (at a guess) if that were to fail, or is there fact that smaller engines tend to suffer in general with turbo ?

Arorat - I'm moving outside my competency area - but here goes...

The turbo used on the Twin Air is referred to as the I2 in the Wikipedia series so given that the RHb series have been replaced by the RHF series I will take a chance and state that the Brand, Model no. is IHI RHF2.

The IHI RHF3 which I referred earlier has a range of 27-135bhp (not 127bhp). This has a has an inlet of 19mm and and exhaust of 26mm.
http://www.ihi-turbo.com/turbo_RHE-RHF.htm.

But unfortunately the TA model is not listed. The IHI RHF2 would be classified in the same 'bracket' as the Garret GT12, Hitachi HT06, Mitsubishi TD02 with some only having an 'ideal operating range' of 20-70bhp so I would need the 'range'. Given that the turbo is working from low revs I have a suspicion that it might be operating on the rated upper limit.

The reality is that because the TA will only be a domestic road car it will not be expected that you will be running on boost for any prolonged period - so I can't see any reason why the turbo shouldn't last a lot time given that it is referred to a 'ball bearing' type. If it needs a re-conditioning a kit can be bought and looking at prices of 'typical' 'exchange' turbos it will not 'break the bank'.

My experience of Turbos 'failing' is a tell tale sign is given with extra smoke out the back exhaust. So it is unlikely that it will just simply stop working.

So in summary - forgot about what's going on under the bonnet when you're blasting around Europe. You can be smug in the satisfaction that it can give 103bhp of the Zagoto with the right re-map.

 

[loveshandbags]

I don't agree with Multispoke about a 105bhp twinair having a short life, plenty of cars deliver 100bhp/litre+ and run reliably, I very much doubt Fiat will achieve this boost in power simply by putting a bigger turbo on.

The A500 with the IHI RHF3 turbo had its turbo changed to the IHI RHF4 model for the 695 when power was increased from the esseesse 160bhp to 180bhp. Using bigger turbos gives longer life. But given the size of the TA engine it is unlikely that they will increase to a IHI RHF3.
But If the IHI RHF2 operating range is rated at 20-85bhp (I have to find this out ) and it's operating for prolonged periods at 105bhp it will have a shortened life.