Technical Suspension back to comfort level?

[GrahamH2]

I have a Fiat 500R which seems to have been modified with ‘Sports Suspension’ and it rides so badly over our rough roads and multiple speed bumps that it is almost unbearable. The clearance above the tyres to the wheel arches is about 25 mm but there is no tyre rubbing as I guess the suspension is so stiff.

I would like to refit standard suspension or even slightly softer than standard but don’t know where to start as there are lots of articles about lowering and stiffening suspension but very little about going the other way.

How can I identify the softest springs and dampers?

 

[Goldnrust]

I doubt you'll be able to buy any springs softer than standard ones off the shelf.

There are companies out there who will custom make you springs but its an expensive route and one where you could easily end up making things worse.

I guess the first step is to identify what suspension you have got on there currently. Maybe post some pictures? Just to confirm that is it isn't standard. The 500 is not known for it's ride comfort, it wont begin to compare to anything modern, but you'd not expect it to be backbreaking either.

 

[GrahamH2]

I doubt you'll be able to buy any springs softer than standard ones off the shelf.

There are companies out there who will custom make you springs but its an expensive route and one where you could easily end up making things worse.

I guess the first step is to identify what suspension you have got on there currently. Maybe post some pictures? Just to confirm that is it isn't standard. The 500 is not known for it's ride comfort, it wont begin to compare to anything modern, but you'd not expect it to be backbreaking either.

I will take some better pictures of the actual springs fitted but here is one showing how the car sits.

 

[bugsymike]

I will take some better pictures of the actual springs fitted but here is one showing how the car sits.

Where you find leaf springs giving a hard ride, I find something that gets missed , but we always used to do in the old days when most cars had multi leaf suspension springs, was to jack the vehicle up on the body so that the springs hung as near loose as possible then spray oil between the leaves.
This reduces the friction allowing the leaves to move easily against each other giving a nicer ride without affecting the load capabilities.
A while ago I had an old diesel Nissan Cabstar which was often driven empty, going over speed bumps etc. almost knocked your teeth out.
I jacked it up as described and sprayed gear oil between the leaves, it's a messy job but makes quite an improvement.
You can jam a big old screwdriver between the leaves to get the oil in further.

 

[GrahamH2]

Where you find leaf springs giving a hard ride, I find something that gets missed , but we always used to do in the old days when most cars had multi leaf suspension springs, was to jack the vehicle up on the body so that the springs hung as near loose as possible then spray oil between the leaves.
This reduces the friction allowing the leaves to move easily against each other giving a nicer ride without affecting the load capabilities.
A while ago I had an old diesel Nissan Cabstar which was often driven empty, going over speed bumps etc. almost knocked your teeth out.
I jacked it up as described and sprayed gear oil between the leaves, it's a messy job but makes quite an improvement.
You can jam a big old screwdriver between the leaves to get the oil in further.

I'm pretty sure I will need to change the leaf springs but when I do I will certainly lubricate them as suggested, thanks for the tip.

 

[GrahamH2]

I doubt you'll be able to buy any springs softer than standard ones off the shelf.

There are companies out there who will custom make you springs but its an expensive route and one where you could easily end up making things worse.

I guess the first step is to identify what suspension you have got on there currently. Maybe post some pictures? Just to confirm that is it isn't standard. The 500 is not known for it's ride comfort, it wont begin to compare to anything modern, but you'd not expect it to be backbreaking either.

I have looked again at the 500R suspension and taken a few photos. The leaf spring has 5 leaves and the ends point upwards which explains the lowered body. It has a painted on number partially obscured by the bracket ??.947.81 . The dampers are red but I can’t see any numbers.

The rear springs and dampers are both red with the spring gauge at 14.5 mm but it is not practical to measure the spring length whilst still on the car.

So I conclude that lowered springs have been fitted but they are not necessarily stiffer and probably the dampers have more damping than standard. I will fit standard springs and dampers and see how that works out but a couple of questions.

1. Does the 500R use a different rear suspension which needs a shorter spring than previous models?

2. Can the rear spring and damper be removed and fitted without disturbing the drive shaft or brakes?

3. Do the numbers ??.947.81 have any significance?

4. Is it essential to have a special tool to fit the front spring?

 

[bugsymike]

I'm pretty sure I will need to change the leaf springs but when I do I will certainly lubricate them as suggested, thanks for the tip.

Modern vehicles with multi leaf springs often have nylon pads to do the same job, so it may be worth checking as oil may deteriorate the nylon.
Re the front spring I seem to recall someone mentioning a tool as there can be a fair amount of tension.
in general when working on other makes I used to have a 4 foot long bar that had a U shape at one end that sat around the leaves allowing a lot of leverage to pull the spring where you wanted it. If you imagine your arm out stretched with your thumb and forefinger at right angles to your arm, that is what the bar looked like. I thought it was someones home made tool, but I have seen smaller versions as well so probably quite common in the 1950s.
I did wonder if the spring leaves could be repositioned.
As a cheap option around 1970 we used to chop a coil off a standard spring to lower it, though it did make for a stiffer ride. Is there any chance that has been done to yours?

 

[Fatcatvera]

I have a Fiat 500R which seems to have been modified with ‘Sports Suspension’ and it rides so badly over our rough roads and multiple speed bumps that it is almost unbearable. The clearance above the tyres to the wheel arches is about 25 mm but there is no tyre rubbing as I guess the suspension is so stiff.

I would like to refit standard suspension or even slightly softer than standard but don’t know where to start as there are lots of articles about lowering and stiffening suspension but very little about going the other way.

How can I identify the softest springs and dampers?

I've got exactly the same problem, but in reverse! I posted some questions about standard 500R springs a week or so ago and noone knew the answers....Ill send you a DM

 

[the hobbler]

I've got exactly the same problem, but in reverse! I posted some questions about standard 500R springs a week or so ago and noone knew the answers....Ill send you a DM

If the ends of your front spring are turning UP, then you have a "reverse-leaf" spring". This is a 'lowering' spring and there is every chance that it IS stiffer.To keep the ride height level, I expect that shorter (and therefore almost definitely stiffer) rear springs have been fitted. To get a 'softer' ride, you will have to "go back to standard".
Your local supplier for the 'classic' 500 is Motobambino near Carnforth---Mark is a very helpful guy. One word of warning---before you fit the new front spring, check that it is "central"---hardly any of the 'pattern' springs are! I wrote an article for the 'Classic Fiat 500 Club' magazine on how to check this measurement, and if required, rectify the discrepancy (anything up to 10mm!). If you contact me direct ( [email protected] ) I will gladly pass on a copy of that article to you. With regard to the rear springs, again Mark can supply you with standard spec springs
In answer to your question, NO, you do NOT have to disturb the rear brakes or the drive-shafts in order to replace the rear springs. Fiat used to supply a special tool for fitting the front spring, but I doubt if you will find one of these tools anywhere in the UK now. It is not a difficult job, just a bit tedious and needs a bit of care. Remember--ALWAYS put the car on stands when working under it---NEVER work under a car with it just on a jack.

 

[Toshi 975]

I have looked again at the 500R suspension and taken a few photos. The leaf spring has 5 leaves and the ends point upwards which explains the lowered body. It has a painted on number partially obscured by the bracket ??.947.81 . The dampers are red but I can’t see any numbers.

The rear springs and dampers are both red with the spring gauge at 14.5 mm but it is not practical to measure the spring length whilst still on the car.

So I conclude that lowered springs have been fitted but they are not necessarily stiffer and probably the dampers have more damping than standard. I will fit standard springs and dampers and see how that works out but a couple of questions.

1. Does the 500R use a different rear suspension which needs a shorter spring than previous models?

2. Can the rear spring and damper be removed and fitted without disturbing the drive shaft or brakes?

3. Do the numbers ??.947.81 have any significance?

4. Is it essential to have a special tool to fit the front spring?

I have a set of unused original Italian made shock absorbers complete with all fittings for sale at the bargain price of £75 plus post if interested.

 

[GrahamH2]

If the ends of your front spring are turning UP, then you have a "reverse-leaf" spring". This is a 'lowering' spring and there is every chance that it IS stiffer.To keep the ride height level, I expect that shorter (and therefore almost definitely stiffer) rear springs have been fitted. To get a 'softer' ride, you will have to "go back to standard".
Your local supplier for the 'classic' 500 is Motobambino near Carnforth---Mark is a very helpful guy. One word of warning---before you fit the new front spring, check that it is "central"---hardly any of the 'pattern' springs are! I wrote an article for the 'Classic Fiat 500 Club' magazine on how to check this measurement, and if required, rectify the discrepancy (anything up to 10mm!). If you contact me direct ( [email protected] ) I will gladly pass on a copy of that article to you. With regard to the rear springs, again Mark can supply you with standard spec springs
In answer to your question, NO, you do NOT have to disturb the rear brakes or the drive-shafts in order to replace the rear springs. Fiat used to supply a special tool for fitting the front spring, but I doubt if you will find one of these tools anywhere in the UK now. It is not a difficult job, just a bit tedious and needs a bit of care. Remember--ALWAYS put the car on stands when working under it---NEVER work under a car with it just on a jack.

The e-mail address bounced, I have sent a message via this website......graham

 

[the hobbler]

Apologies---teach me to read what I write before I press the "go" button! I will also give my fingers a stern talking to!Try meon:--- [email protected] that SHOULD work

The e-mail address bounced, I have sent a message via this website......grah

 

[GrahamH2]

I have now fitted the 'standard' springs and dampers bought from Ricambio and the car rides much smoother over our rough roads. It was interesting to see that most parts suppliers offer rear springs of 220mm length for each mark of 500 but Ricambio have a 190mm spring as standard for the 500R and that's what I have fitted and it works fine. By chance I was able to compare the 220 spring with the 190 (500R standard) and the outgoing 190 stiff red spring, see photo attached. I still can't figure out why swapping the 190 red spring for another 190 spring, albeit softe,r would give a 1" high ride height, but I am not going to worry about it.

The front spring was, as suspected a bit of a faff to fit but I dare say I could do another one in half the time. I used a suggestion from Ray to load the spring with ratchet straps and this worked out OK after refining the technique.