Speed limit(ers)

[DaveMcT]

EU says all cars should have spy in the cab data logging and automatic speed limiters that can read road signs
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjY2Ynqi6XhAhVKQRUIHTJLDfEQFjAFegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rac.co.uk%2Fdrive%2Fnews%2Fmotoring-news%2Fmandatory-speed-limiters%2F&usg=AOvVaw3Q7fj02RW5zGt15tESaL2P

AA says they are dangerous as do Zurich Insurance.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...atory-speed-limiters-2022-shock-EU-rules.html

Theresa May's new treaty (sorry) Brexit deal will prevent UK from vetoing anything ruled by the EU but we will still have to comply. But it's time limit is the end of 2099 so that's all right then. But the UK DfT has already said it will implement the rules so that's alright then.

Watch the market for Sat Nav defeat devices explode.

 

[g8rpi]

Article includes a statement from DfT saying UK car construction regs will mirror EU ones regardless of Brexit outcome. So if we leave we will be folllowing their rules without any input, vote or veto on them

 

[Paddynabs]

In theory it's a good idea if it stops people driving like loons through my village But I can see loads of dangerous situations:

When I want to overtake a tractor and I'm in a 50 zone. Will my car suddenly slow down mid overtake?

As I am entering a 30mph zone and some chav rear ends me cos he's doing 60 and my car has braked sharply.

Overtaking lorries on the motorway?

I don't speed as a rule but sometimes do in the first and last situations. The second one you should be able to avoid if your paying attention but an auto limiter will stop people looking, maybe?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

In theory it's a good idea if it stops people driving like loons through my village But I can see loads of dangerous situations:

When I want to overtake a tractor and I'm in a 50 zone. Will my car suddenly slow down mid overtake?

As I am entering a 30mph zone and some chav rear ends me cos he's doing 60 and my car has braked sharply.

Overtaking lorries on the motorway?

I don't speed as a rule but sometimes do in the first and last situations. The second one you should be able to avoid if your paying attention but an auto limiter will stop people looking, maybe?

Apparently you will be able to override the limiter by putting your foot flat to the floor, this will go two ways, either everyone will drive with their foot flat to the floor or there will be a time limit so if you’ve not completed your manover in a certain time you’ll suddenly find your engine power cut.

 

[Liquid Knight II]

If you respect the Road Traffic Act or not you have the right to choose to be a law abiding citizen.

This kind of EU dictatorship is the reason why we voted to leave.

 

[portland_bill]

This is proposed as a safety benefit. I think it may lead to more irresponsible behaviour.

We already have speed limits that at times are inappropriate. Most residential streets are 30mph, but many create situations where 30 is dangerous. Any A or B road has sections where the legal limit would be unsafe, but already some drivers think the limit is the 'safe' limit, and get surprised when they fail to negotiate a bend.

With an automatic limiter, some may choose to let the limiter dictate the speed, leading to less thinking, and more problems.

All of us that use a satnav have seen areas where the nav disagrees with the signs of limits. So which will the auto system use? When signs are overgrown, or otherwise unseen by the on-board camera, can we use that as a defence? It is now the responsibility of the car manufacturer to ensure we adhere to speed limits, no longer the driver's responsibility? The current Fiesta has a speed display, but seems to use a mix of camera and nav for its display, sometimes confusing itself, at other times, just failing to display anything. Satnav data is often incorrect.

The system will work like current limiters, fitted to many new cars already but manually set by the driver. When increasing speed, once the limit is reached, power is reduced and the limit is held. Going downhill, it will happily exceed the set limit, when a warning will sound. Pushing the accelerator hard allows an override. Except on some Renault and Nissan vehicles, where it will not allow the car to accelerate above the set limit unless the cancel button is pressed. That can lead to a worrying moment.

When we are in busy traffic, such as motorway roadworks, with a 50 limit, the traffic tends to bunch together. This is now likely to happen at 70. Whilst we may 'tut' at those exceeding 70, or moan at those doing only 65, these differences allow us to maintain our own progress, and manage our road space. With limiters, we'll all be in a big block, with nowhere to go when someone makes a mistake.

Cars built just before the limiters are compulsory may hold their value a little better for a few years.

The future seems to be all electric, and convoying at set speeds. Like a train without the connection between them.

 

[Eklipze3k]

If you respect the Road Traffic Act or not you have the right to choose to be a law abiding citizen.

You still have the right to choose, by just not buying a new car with all of this gubbins installed.

 

[DaveMcT]

The authorities have made so much fuss that "speed kills" without considering the real issues that folks now believe the rhetoric.

The police will tell us that in most cases excess speed was not the cause of a crash. It's usually someone doing something daft like sudden lane changes to exit a motorway or hitting the brakes for no obvious reason causing a rear-end and pile up.

I can see the point of speed limiters in towns and would accept them in 30 areas. But we all know the government loves mission creep so we'd soon be watched 24/7. But they are all big brother watching so I'm against.

I'm a biker - a common potential accident is car drivers pulling out without looking properly. It's usually someone from the left turning right but they do it the other way as well. My bike is a big BMW with headlight (dipped) and two dipped beam spots so its not hard to see (and it doesn't dazzle anyone) but they still pull out. In recent years the problem has got worse because drivers have one solution to every problem - hit the brakes. They pull out then stop exactly in the wrong place putting 2 tons of steel right in your line of travel. In the past they usually hit the accelerator and made space. These days, they never do.

I think the whole anti speed propagada has caused drivers to not consider what they are actually doing and what they will do when things suddenly change. e.g. when they screw up a T junction exit.

Speed limiters will make the problems worse. Cars snaking along will appear to be going slow. Drivers pulling out wont be thinking about high speed impacts. Drivers rolling along on the limiter will be on auto pilot probably bored brainless. They wont react when they should.

Everyone's going slowly so they'll just wander on out. Snakes of cars at busy periods will have zero gaps between them so people trying to exit side roads will be even more frustrated with more taking risks. The time taken for each car to get rolling when the road is clear will get longer simply because drivers are bored so to ready to move so fewer get through before the lights change. Peak period jams will get even worse.

Around my way there are many drivers who love the 20/40 "rule". In a 30 zone they accelerate painfully slowly and hardly ever get to 30. But they are so bored they are likely to brake hard for a side turning because they weren't paying attention or they start to slow down 1/4 mile early and cause even more holds ups as they trundle at near walking speed. The same numpties will never go above 40mph on a national speed limit road. Pretty much every other driver thinks overtaking is dangerous so they trundle along behind these mobile road blocks. Usually dangerously close but too scared (or too incompetent) to overtake safely.

I see speed limiters leading to huge frustration on the roads and I see a huge market in defeat devices.

New cars from 2020 to 2022 will become very sought after so get your orders in.

 

[Liquid Knight II]

You still have the right to choose, by just not buying a new car with all of this gubbins installed.

Ah, that's now. As soon as GPS limiters (special cameras that can read signs my arse) are added to the construction and use regulations for new vehicles how long will it be before vehicles that have the technology in place have to have it installed as part of the MOT?

Vehicles fitted with adaptive cruise control now are a software patch away from Orwellian tyranny.

 

[portland_bill]

...(special cameras that can read signs my arse)...

There are already many models using this technology. Most Volvos have had it for a few years, although just deleted from the lower models this year, Honda Civic has had it for a few years too. Latest Fiesta also has it, although it will sometimes use its nav data instead, so is often wrong.

Like ANPR, the software is set up to recognise certain round signs. The round sign, red border, white background and a number seem to be easy for the camear to spot. This is then displayed on the instruments as a reminder. Hidden or dirty signs will not be spotted though, or if out of the eyeline of the camera. In Swindon we used to have a speed change with a sign significantly higher up a pole than normal, neither the Civics or the Volvos would see the change, so we'd sail on down the housing estate at well over 30 mph, with the driver relying on the car display, rather than using some sense that a housing estate should not be a 40 like the road we'd turned from. Can see a few exciting moments once automated.

Now if you get a full size speed sign tattooed on your arse, and bend over with it towards the traffic, everyone will slow to your new speed limit.

 

[g8rpi]

If you respect the Road Traffic Act or not you have the right to choose to be a law abiding citizen.

This kind of EU dictatorship is the reason why we voted to leave.

We? that is very presumptious
I'd bet most people who voted to leave didn't realise that the UK government would just transcribe virtually all the EU rules into UK law. For example Vehicle construction and use, safety including EMI/EMC, Lowvoltage, Pressure and Machinery. When (if?) we leave we will have to comply with the same standards but no longer have significant input to them or any vote / veto. The UK government have said it will accept the EU standards ("E" and CE marks) but it's almost certain the EU won't ours.
Aviation is another bi question. Either we make our own regulations and negotate their acceptance with the rest of the world (not just EU) or we become a third country member of EASA. Again this means following rules we have no vote on. More importantly british compnies will no longer have design approvals fo anything other than minor (no safety critical) modifications. To do anything more they will have to set up a company in the EU and ue that to approve the UK company sa a subcontractor.
:bang::bang::bang::bang:

Robert G8RPI.
These are my own opinons and comments and may not represent thoe of my employer (disclamer required by my employer for any aviation comments)

 

[DaveMcT]

We have had no genuine control of new rules for a very long time. The change of all electrical cables to Brown Live, Blue Neutral and Green/Yellow Earth (previously red, black, green) was an EU requirement which UK took hook line and sinker. The Germans were also not impressed because brown is earth in Germany but they had to change.

James Dyson said the EU single market is full of all sorts of details required by individual countries which make compliance just as difficult from inside as from outside. It was one reason he wanted out. Plus the way EU fiddled the vacuum cleaner power rules to suit the big German makers like Bosch and Miele. What' the point in having pan-continent standards when some are more equal than others.

 

[g8rpi]

Well having been responsible for compliance of equipment sold across Europe I can honestly say it is a single set of CE marking standards so I don't know what Dyson as talking about. The only variable know of of is the slight changes in power connectors, but for double insulated equipment like cleaners that is minimal. We do have input to and a vote on rules.
Saying the EU changed the wiring colours is just plain wrong. The first change to Blue / Brown was in the 1970 ammendment of the wiring regs and was mandated from 1971. Britain did not join the EEC until 1973. The change was for valid safety reasons, mainly red-green colour blindness. and was harmonised across europe by CENELEC.
Limiting motor power in cleaners has resulted in quieter, more efficent cleaners. The laws of physics and aerodynamics are no different for Dyson than Bosch or Miele, so Dyson should stop whinging.

There is just far too much disinformation being put out there.

Robert G8RPI.

 

[DaveMcT]

Saying the EU changed the wiring colours is just plain wrong. The first change to Blue / Brown was in the 1970 ammendment of the wiring regs and was mandated from 1971. Britain did not join the EEC until 1973. The change was for valid safety reasons, mainly red-green colour blindness. and was harmonised across europe by CENELEC.

The changes to appliance power cords were done as you say a long time ago. The changes to building wiring codes were only a few years ago. Most older houses have a mix of red/black/green and the new brown/blue wiring along with a label to tell anyone working on the system to be careful. In this situation there is no wire colours safety hazard, because swapping the earth and live will trip the mandatory earth leakage protection. The old installations with rewireable fuses and no earth leakage breaker were risky in so many ways.

France for example wires differently to UK. We allow ring mains where every socket has in effect two feeds. The French do it all with separate spurs to each socket and I believe would not allow a ring main to be installed. Both systems are safe, but they do have low power and high power circuits that potentially allow the use to overload the low power type.

On double insulated appliances, it could be said that there is no need for different wire colours. It's a.c. so both are the same. Lamps often have no colours on the connecting wires.

 

[puntofan01]

I stick to speed limits, so the concept of these devices doesn't particularly bother me, unlike a colleague of mine, who owns a chavaru impreza, and who was spitting feathers when the announcement was made...

However, what does bother me is the execution. Also, with the best will in the world, electronics are fallible, and with such complex systems being so integrated into car design, the potential for catastrophic failure rendering the car unusable is getting ever greater.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I stick to speed limits, so the concept of these devices doesn't particularly bother me, unlike a colleague of mine, who owns a chavaru impreza, and who was spitting feathers when the announcement was made...

However, what does bother me is the execution. Also, with the best will in the world, electronics are fallible, and with such complex systems being so integrated into car design, the potential for catastrophic failure rendering the car unusable is getting ever greater.

I kinda agree with you. If you do the speed limit then it shouldn’t be an issue. There are times I would exceed the limit such as when overtaking, or creeping up and not noticing and at least this would keep me in the limits when appropriate, it would still allow the over take but not the creeping.

I however think modern electronics are very reliable these days, and pretty robust, I don’t think it would render cars unusable. Trucks have been using limiters for many years, the only reliability issue would be the GPS signal and the database being updated appropriately.

Also if you get some for speeding and the limiter allowed you to do that the manufacture, the government, you how would they decide who is at fault?

 

[chr1s]

I however think modern electronics are very reliable these days, and pretty robust, I don’t think it would render cars unusable. Trucks have been using limiters for many years, the only reliability issue would be the GPS signal and the database being updated appropriately.

{cough} ... Boeing 737 Max ... {cough} :devil:

On the one hand electronics and software can be extremely reliable; on the other hand, car manufacturers squeeze and squeeze on price and deadlines, and sometimes things break.

However, in this case, if the electronics fails it can be expected to fail safely and not force the driver to exceed the speed limit or crash.
I often use the limiter on my BMW, especially to keep below the limit in 20mph zones, and it's not a problem. The concern, as you say, is whether the system reliably knows the speed limit for that section of road.
People become reliant on driver aids and aren't ready for the car in front to slow suddenly due to its limiter getting the wrong speed limit information.
The articles I have read are not clear whether the limiter will actively slow the car down (like cruise control) or just prevent any acceleration whilst above the limit.

 

[DaveMcT]

Also, the more a car does for you and the more insulated from the world you are the effect is to further massage a driver's impressions of how good they are. Most are already hopeless. We really don't need to encourage them.

The effect will be cars jammed in long lines at 20mph because the 1 in 20 dopey drivers are scared to drive to the speed limiter. That will cause (yet) more frustration and risky overtakes.