Technical Scratching clutch....

[GrandePunto PL]

"Problem", again? Look at this guy from YT: https://www.youtube.com/@WMCS/search?query=Fiat
Gearbox weights only 30 kg, healthy adult male should be able to handle it.
The biggest obstruction for me was the axles - you should remove them completely from the car, unlike the YT dude.

It should be done by hands, not tools (jacks), because you need to "feel" what's going on, if it's stuck etc.
You can bend the input shaft if you try to force it into place. There is nothing to "wrestle" there.

 

[AnthonyH]

I had another go at getting the gearbox back on by hand but it didn't work. I can lift the gearbox into the right area, but not push it on.

I'll have to shuffle around in the loft looking for ropes and straps and see what I can come up with. Or is getting a transmission jack worth it?

 

[rmjbn1]

I've found driveshafts, seals and gearboxes seem to enjoy putting up a fight before they simply slip on/off, leaving you wondering what all the fuss was about. Just to make things interesting.

As soon as the splines line up and the angle is right it should go on. As GPPL says, it doesn't want to be forced.

But I've had to remove a clutch and try again in the past.

As long as you're certain the clutch plate is the right way round and properly centred.

A good tip I picked up on here is to rub a soft pencil (6B) on the splines to give a bit of graphite lubrication, wiping off any excess.

 

[AnthonyH]

I've found driveshafts, seals and gearboxes seem to enjoy putting up a fight before they simply slip on/off, leaving you wondering what all the fuss was about. Just to make things interesting.

As soon as the splines line up and the angle is right it should go on. As GPPL says, it doesn't want to be forced.

But I've had to remove a clutch and try again in the past.

As long as you're certain the clutch plate is the right way round and properly centred.

A good tip I picked up on here is to rub a soft pencil (6B) on the splines to give a bit of graphite lubrication, wiping off any excess.

I've possilby not lowered the engine enough to let the gearbox go on, so i'll give it one last go by hand

Edit: I tried again. I get closer each time i try by hand, but it'll take forever...

I'm minded to buy something like below, although that one is a motorbike lift.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VIVOHOME-Scissor-Motorcycle-Scooter-1100Lb/dp/B06X9CYNJF/

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Come on, what is the "problem" there?

Timestamp 1:

Timestamp 2:

No, you don't need special tools, lifts etc.

Have you tested the new clutch plate (before the swap), if it fits the gearbox input shaft splines?

 

[AnthonyH]

Come on, what is the "problem" there?

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Kevin-Albert Williams is an expert, he's done 400 clutches and i've done zero! It would be unrealistic to think I could match that level of expertise. Based upon the thread linked below i'm not the only one who struggles to do this.

Clutch slip 2004 Panda 1.2 | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

35 Kg feels about right. It "can" be done on your driveway, but you need some lateral thinking as it far to much to manhandle into place. A jack underneath and ratchet strap from above turned out the winner. A steel tube (round or square) across the top allows the webbing to slip and rotate the...

www.fiatforum.com

Have you tested the new clutch plate (before the swap), if it fits the gearbox input shaft splines?

Yes, the clutch plate fits perfectly.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

When I have done the clutch and I need to lift the gearbox on my own, I have two methods.

1. Balance the gearbox on a trolley jack and then you can roll the jack around as needed and pump it up and down to adjust the height. Just be aware that the Gbox can slip off the jack if you're not careful.

Or 2. go full hulk, hands through the top of the engine bay get yourself at low as you can and reach down pull the gearbox upwards and into the place.

If the input shaft is not sliding into the the clutch plate then you might want to recheck the centering of the clutch plate.

I have one of those clutch Centering tools they do work ok, but they can be a bit inaccurate. On my Mk1 Punto the centering tool was too big so I used a deep socket slid inside another deep socket to get the plate centered perfectly.

 

[AnthonyH]

When I have done the clutch and I need to lift the gearbox on my own, I have two methods.

1. Balance the gearbox on a trolley jack and then you can roll the jack around as needed and pump it up and down to adjust the height. Just be aware that the Gbox can slip off the jack if you're not careful.

I've not tried this yet, but as per your suggestion i'll give it a try. I was a bit put off by watching a youtuber whose gearbox fell off the jack! There was no damage done and he just put it back on the jack to get the job done. He said he did it all in one day, so i have time to be more careful. Its for this reason i've just been looking at transmission jacks, i could get one for about £140. But I will give this a go, it might work.

Or 2. go full hulk, hands through the top of the engine bay get yourself at low as you can and reach down pull the gearbox upwards and into the place.

Lol, ok, i'll try full hulk if that fails

If the input shaft is not sliding into the the clutch plate then you might want to recheck the centering of the clutch plate.

I have one of those clutch Centering tools they do work ok, but they can be a bit inaccurate. On my Mk1 Punto the centering tool was too big so I used a deep socket slid inside another deep socket to get the plate centered perfectly

I had some issue using the aligning tool, but then discovered that its possible to feel around the clutch in 3 different places to check that plate and spring are aligned. The clutch is bolted on and i'm 99% sure that it is aligned...

Thanks for the reply.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Don't be afraid to move the engine to improve your access. This is me putting the Gearbox back in my Mk1.

One thing I forgot to add and I cannot emphasize this enough, Is make sure you put the clutch plate in the right way round.
Many a clutch job has needed doing twice because of this easy to make, mistake.

 

[AnthonyH]

Don't be afraid to move the engine to improve your access. This is me putting the Gearbox back in my Mk1.

View attachment 462996

Holy toledo lol. I didn't know that was possible lol.

That will make things easier, i brought the engine down a little today, but it will go a lot more.

One thing I forgot to add and I cannot emphasize this enough, Is make sure you put the clutch plate in the right way round.

Many a clutch job has needed doing twice because of this easy to make, mistake.

I'm fairly sure i put the plate in the right way..I'll check it tomorrow and take a picture to remind myself.

What happens if someone puts the plate in the wrong way?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Holy toledo lol. I didn't know that was possible lol.

That will make things easier, i brought the engine down a little today, but it will go a lot more.

Just be careful of things like hoses on the top of the engine.

I'm fairly sure i put the plate in the right way..I'll check it tomorrow and take a picture to remind myself.

What happens if someone puts the plate in the wrong way?

Depends on the car but usually you can’t disengage the clutch

 

[AnthonyH]

I've got a couple of the top gearbox bolts attached and tightened by hand. I lowered the engine with one jack and pushed the gearbox up with another. It took me a couple of hours of manouvering but when lined up the box seemed to go on easily. Maybe too easily lol

What i wanted to check was whether the operation of the arm is supposed to be like this?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Did you put the thrust bearing in??

The release will not be fully tight unless the gearbox is fully home which might mean you need to tighten all the bolts fully first

 

[AnthonyH]

Did you put the thrust bearing in??

Yes its in.

The release will not be fully tight unless the gearbox is fully home which might mean you need to tighten all the bolts fully first

I'm hoping thats the case lol. It doesn't look like it'll seat completly flush until the gearbox and engine are fully up.

I guess i'll press on and hope for the best!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Yes its in.



I'm hoping thats the case lol. It doesn't look like it'll seat completly flush until the gearbox and engine are fully up.

I guess i'll press on and hope for the best!

You also have to remember that normally the slave cylinder would take up any slop in the movement that would never be present in normal use

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Use cheap USB endoscope camera and check the operation via inspection window (rubber rectangle near the fork lever).
This is your "wiggle video" (view inside the bell-housing), source of the slack/play (there is enough room, stroke, to move the bearing+fork back from the clutch, that's all - that's why clutch slave cylinder has a spring, to take that slack away).

And this is normal clutch operation.

Simple car (no "problems", no "mystery" there).

 

[AnthonyH]

You also have to remember that normally the slave cylinder would take up any slop in the movement that would never be present in normal use

Ahhh, I see now, I'm getting concerned about the slop which is probably normal.

Use cheap USB endoscope camera and check the operation via inspection window (rubber rectangle near the fork lever).
This is your "wiggle video" (view inside the bell-housing), source of the slack/play (there is enough room, stroke, to move the bearing+fork back from the clutch, that's all - that's why clutch slave cylinder has a spring, to take that slack away).
View attachment 463321

And this is normal clutch operation.
View attachment 463323

Simple car (no "problems", no "mystery" there).

I have a cheap car endoscope camera so I'll try to get some footage and post it here.

 

[AnthonyH]

I took some footage, the bearing appears to be working correctly.

The gearbox went back on its mounts today. I reckon the difficult stuff is out of the way now and I can put it all back together relatively quickly. Then there may be some fault finding. Will see

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I took some footage, the bearing appears to be working correctly.


View attachment 463366


The gearbox went back on its mounts today. I reckon the difficult stuff is out of the way now and I can put it all back together relatively quickly. Then there may be some fault finding. Will see

....... that shows the bearing moving back and forth but its not putting any pressure on the spring?

 

[AnthonyH]

Just checked.

It appears the clutch slave needs bleeding. The clutch pedal is soft and there's little force being applied to the throw out bearing from the fork inside the gearbox. I'm not sure how air got in there?!

I can see what I assume to be a bleed nipple on the slave, so i'll bleed it and get some more footage from inside the gearbox. When hopefully the spring will be getting compressed.

I'll do this before I attach any of the other bolts.