Technical Scratching clutch....

[puntodad19]

Yeh, but stop start, bad drivers slipping clutch on a hill rather than applying handbrake and putting into neutral, city driving etc. Etc. Etc., Plus your clutch skreaching noise....

How many previous owners ?

Can you check via parts views if the flywheel end of the crank has a spigot bearing hole, for clutch friction plate alignment ?

Haynes manual page 6.4, picture 6.14 shows gearbox input shaft with no *spigot*, and 5.16 suggests pressure plate fingers achieve centralisation of friction plate. Clutch refitting 16 says hole in crank end....but the Monica for the manual is the Haynes book of lies for a reason....

 

[AnthonyH]

Yeh, but stop start, bad drivers slipping clutch on a hill rather than applying handbrake and putting into neutral, city driving etc. Etc. Etc., Plus your clutch skreaching noise....

The clutch i'm doing at the moment is at 112,000 miles, i've previously had a Grande Punto with a slipping clutch at 95,000 miles, I know for certain that one had someone riding the clutch. My other Grande Punto is at 93,000 miles now and the clutch is OK, but I'd imagine i'll be doing that within the next year.

Its interesting you mention those people who ride the clutch on a hill. I'd not thought about that, because I don't do it, but I see a lot of it.

If my experience of Punto clutches is anything to go by then you'll need your sons doing at around 100,000 miles plus or minus 10,000 miles. What is it at now?

How many previous owners ?

5

Can you check via parts views if the flywheel end of the crank has a spigot bearing hole, for clutch friction plate alignment ?

Haynes manual page 6.4, picture 6.14 shows gearbox input shaft with no *spigot*, and 5.16 suggests pressure plate fingers achieve centralisation of friction plate. Clutch refitting 16 says hole in crank end....but the Monica for the manual is the Haynes book of lies for a reason....

I've just looked at the Haynes manual, i find it quite hard to follow!

I'm about 95% sure that the input shaft can be used with one of the tools I linked to on Amazon above. I think i'm going to buy that and hope for the best! If it doesn't fit then I can send it back.

 

[AnthonyH]

Also, have you removed the gear selection linkages from gearbox shaft yet ??

The linkages came off this morning. A flat head screw driver levers them.

 

[puntodad19]

The lads Punto, 1.2 8 Valve, second owner from about 45k, now at 117k from memory....

Is you clutch one a 1.2 8 Valve ?

Gunna be a good weekend weatherwise....

 

[AnthonyH]

The lads Punto, 1.2 8 Valve, second owner from about 45k, now at 117k from memory....

Is you clutch one a 1.2 8 Valve ?

Gunna be a good weekend weatherwise....

I'm doing a 1.4L 8V. But i think its the same clutch as in the 1.2L 8V, or very similar. Sounds like your car is going to need a clutch soon.

I'll be away for a week from this weekend, i'll be online but not able to do any car work. The gearbox is ready to drop but I don't want to go away and leave the engine suspended on a jack, so now it'll have to wait. There's no rush, and i don't have the time to dedicate 2-3 half days to this and get it finished.

The alignment tool i bought to hold the clutch in place fits properly, it was about £7.

 

[AnthonyH]

I'm at the point where the gearbox is almost off. I'm down to just one more bolt to be removed, its the one you can see on the engine mount in the picture below. I'm worried that the gearbox is going to drop on the floor. How do you position jacks to prevent this? What am i supposed to do?

 

[rmjbn1]

Looks like the engine is supported underneath

So the gearbox won't drop.

It'll be supported by the input shaft in the clutch.

You'll need to slide the gearbox off the engine.

Then it will want to drop to the floor!

 

[AnthonyH]

Looks like the engine is supported underneath

So the gearbox won't drop.

It'll be supported by the input shaft in the clutch.

You'll need to slide the gearbox off the engine.

Then it will want to drop to the floor!

I was hoping it'd be something like that lol.

So i don't need to worry it'll hit the floor, just accept it needs to drop a little

 

[puntodad19]

Hi anthony,

Rushing jobs causes mistakes to be made, even if you have done a particular job before......

That sump pan looks rusty and damp, does it leak oil ??

Make life easy for your self by removing/undoing things that will get in the way and hinder you.

The engine does not look well supported to me, exhaust strained as well as RADIATOR HOSES etc......

Support the engine via the suggested U shaped support affair that butts up to the row of front and rear sump bolts, at the gearbox end, that a jack or wood block tower can support. This way there is no chance of the sump floor being "pushed up " and pressing on the fragile plastic oil pick up pipe, which is easy to crack and break, causing rear loss of oil pressure ( sucking in air ) with no oil pressure light illumination but engine damage !

Remove very front section of exhaust from equation to give better access for better engine support.

Gearbox......you have wood.......see your picture of the gearbox.......

You see the two square windows on the bottom of the bellhousing, and, the u shaped *cut out* in the casting lug of the gearbox, and, the relatively flat underside of the gearbox...ideal opportunities to exploit a support device/cradle that can be used along with the jack to support, remove to the near side, and drop the gearbox out of the way...

As said, remove everything out of the way that is going to hinder you...shafts, electrical and hydraulic connections, rad hoses ?????? ( dont break the radiator but straining hoses....) exhaust etc......

The gearbox will not be super heavy, but, an assistant ( human or otherwise, like a gearbox support device and jack ) will be very very useful.

Find out exactly at how many points the engine is actually mounted to the body, at each end, and in the middle ??????

A poorly support engine will result in stuff getting strained resulting in breakages......

Don't rush. take your time, hare and tortoise...

Been trying to find the old sump to show u shaped engine support device...that straddles the sump with vertical bits resting on the row of front and rear sump bolts, being height controlled via a jack, or wood stack and wedges........the device only contacts the sump via the sump bolts, so no risk of damage to that delicate plastic oil pick up pipe........


back later......

 

[AnthonyH]

Its off

I'll post pictures and update later

 

[AnthonyH]

The clutch isn't in the best shape;

The bearing is actually fine. But the fork pushes a piece of plastic upon which the bearing sits. Its that plastic piece that has broken, i'll need to replace that. Anyone know what its called?

While removing the gearbox I protected the sump as much as practical, by getting pressure off it with another jack as soon as i could. The sump isn't original to the car, nor particularly rusty, and it looks oily because some gearbox oil has gotten onto it. I think the sump will be fine, but if i have any engine oil pressure problems i'll know what that is...

The gearbox is heavier than i was expecting, so i'll have to be careful getting it back on the car.

Its been a good day, thanks for the help everyone.

 

[AnthonyH]

Replace the fork (and it's bushings) too.

Even so called "professionals" often leave those worn out. It will shorten a lifespan of the new clutch set.
https://www.youtube.com/@WMCS/search?query=Fiat !

OK, the bearing has broken. I just wasn't familiar enough with the parts to realise this.

I'm still deciding what to do about a new fork. Any opinions?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Nope, your bearing is not "fine". Plastic is a part of the bearing ("base plate", that's how a fork holds the bearing).
What to do about the old fork? Trash it and buy new one (bushings too - there must be a press fit, bushings cannot wiggle in the bell housing bores).

Typical wear pattern...

Plastic bushings are inferior. Bronze ones exist officially, but are hard to find or very expensive. You can always make your own (if you have access to lathe).

Actually, one is a standard off-the-shelf machine part, bottom one, 22/16 OD/ID diameters. Top/upper, bigger one is not (24/16,5 mm), must be custom made.

Installed into bell housing...

Worn fingers of the fork can be repaired (if you have tools, TIG, at least pulse mode, ideally single shot capability)... But it's a cheap part, buy new one.

 

[AnthonyH]

Thanks for the info!

I checked the fork this morning and there is too much movement in it, so i'm going to buy a new one, along with the bushes.

I have a few questions.

Is the gearbox oil circled in red below supposed to be there? i presume its meant to be grease.

What is this rusty nut doing? It doesn't appear to be holding anything.

How do i get the clip off without destroying it?

What should i clean the inner bell housing with? Water/soap? Brake cleaner?

Feels like i'm reconditioning the gearbox rather than replacing the clutch!

What else do i need to check?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

1. Gearbox has no "grease", just oil. You have worn gear selector seal (20x30x7), there is a Guide for it! Grande.
Well, there is/was a grease, inside the ball bearings (some of them were sealed type), but we are not that deep yet...
2. Rusty nut holds the main "earth" lead! FAQs, "Electrical gremlin thread" in the Grande section had a picture...
3. Clip is just a regular circlip, there are tools for it (two types: for internal and external clips, that's all), pliers.
4. You can clean with water based stuff, just dry it well after. Plug the axle holes. Brake cleaner will do too. Plus brush (dirt must be agitated).
5. What else? Axle seals? Selector seal (point 1). How far/deep you wanna go? Go back to page-2 for example.
Service Manual, page 52 (differential, main bearings preload). https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/scratching-clutch.514606/post-4796890

 

[AnthonyH]

1. Gearbox has no "grease", just oil. You have worn gear selector seal (20x30x7), there is a Guide for it! Grande.
Well, there is/was a grease, inside the ball bearings (some of them were sealed type), but we are not that deep yet...
2. Rusty nut holds the main "earth" lead! FAQs, "Electrical gremlin thread" in the Grande section had a picture...
3. Clip is just a regular circlip, there are tools for it (two types: for internal and external clips, that's all), pliers.
4. You can clean with water based stuff, just dry it well after. Plug the axle holes. Brake cleaner will do too. Plus brush (dirt must be agitated).
5. What else? Axle seals? Selector seal (point 1). How far/deep you wanna go? Go back to page-2 for example.
Service Manual, page 52 (differential, main bearings preload). https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/scratching-clutch.514606/post-4796890

I'll start working through these and see where i get up to, thanks.

 

[AnthonyH]

I'm struggling to find the right seal for the gear change shifter. I think the right ePer page is below...but which part is it? Is it even there? Or do i buy any 30x20x7? I might just leave this till later as it can be changed with the gearbox on the car.

21219/10 - GEAR SHAFT

FIAT PUNTO EVO (2009-2011)

eper.fiatforum.com

The old clutch came off quite easily, unless the retaining bolts have a really low torque from new then its been replaced in the past.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Why are you creating so much problems, while there is no problem? Guide has the answer (standard seal, 20x30x7, no need for part number).
By the way, this is correct ePER page: https://eper.fiatforum.com/en/Drawings/Detail/F/F/FPUN/3J/212/7/20/45/Group - item number "6".

 

[rmjbn1]

How does the input shaft feel when you turn it?

Any play? Turning smoothly or any notchy feeling in the bearings?

I'd be very suspicious of an input shaft bearing that's run in low oil. The plastic cages have a habit of disintegrating if they get too hot.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Input "clutch" shaft bearing had a metal cage (old version of the bearing, ball bearing and sealed type, filled with grease).
Known for disintegrating badly. Examples on YouTube. You'll find cage debris in the oil, in the differential, axle seals etc.
New version/revision has open bearing, roller type.

Other bearings - same situation. Sealed ball type ones were successively replaced with open roller version.