Technical Panda Axle repair

[DaveMcT]

I know the ideal solution is a new (used) rear axle but it looks like mine is fixable before its too late. A new axle is not low cost and Pandas hard to come by so I want alternative options.

The rear shock inner bracket is welded to the coil spring pan. Mine (both sides) are rotting but the spring pans still look ok.

Has anyone weld repaired a rusting rear axle? Does reinforcing that shock bracket keep the spring pan in place?

As an alternative will the Fiat 500 axle (drum brake) swap straight over to the 2003-2010 Panda?

 

[Asa James]

I'm looking at the 500 option at the minute, need to get under my panda and get some measurements, already have some from a '10 plate 500

 

[DaveMcT]

Looking at online vehicle specs -

• Fiat 500 and Ford Ka Mk 2 rear track is 55.4 inches
• Panda rear track is 53.4 inches.

2" wider overall. Who knows is that's at the hub, swings arms or between chassis mounts.

 

[Asa James]

500 measurements...

Hub mount flange to hub mount flange 51 1/4 inches


Spring cup centre drain to spring cup centre drain 33 3/4 inches


Top chassis mount bracket inner weld to top chassis mount bracket inner weld 42 inches


Chassis mount top weld to back of hub mount plate 19 inches

 

[DaveMcT]

Between spring mount centre holes = 33.75". Easy to do and same as 500

Panda Hub mount flange to hub mount flange as shown isn't possible on car - exhaust in the way.

My best measure between hub mounting face and spring centre hole is 8.5". overall = 50.75" (8.5 x 2 + 33-3/4).

500 frame measures at 51.25" Within 1/2"

To be 100% sure we need the chassis mount measurements for both 500 and Panda. They will need to be measured from the bare subframes as its not possible on the car.

 

[Asa James]

I'll see if I can sort something out, but the optimist inside me says they wouldn't stamp two separate floors for the panda and 500...

 

[portland_bill]

I'll see if I can sort something out, but the optimist inside me says they wouldn't stamp two separate floors for the panda and 500...

500 has a wider track than Panda. My guess is that the floor may be the same, but the suspension beam will give the wider track. Might look a bit silly on a Panda, or might just need wheelarches flaring out.

None of the Panda part numbers show as fitting any 500, similarly, the 500 ones do not list Panda either.

We await your findings.

 

[DaveMcT]

Car spec websites show the Ford Ka and Fiat 500 with the same track and Panda being 50mm narrower. Wheels have the same offset range.

The above measurements show the 500 subframe is about 25mm (1") wider than the Panda. Presumably the other 25mm is in the hub assembly. So Panda hubs on 500 subframe?

My Panda 1.2 has 30 to 35mm clearance between tyre face and wheel arch inside rim. Its at least 2x the clearance at front wheels.

 

[jrkitching]

Remember also that the 500 has two different rear beams, depending on the year of manufacture - the changeover being the 2010 model year. Cars built after 2010 have a stiffer reinforced beam; the springs & shocks are different also. It's difficult enough to retrofit the later type beam to earlier 500's, let alone a Panda. I doubt any UK sourced 500 beam made prior to the changeover would by now be sufficiently free of rust to be worth using as a replacement.

Personally I doubt very much either 500 beam will fit the Panda.

I've got both a revised setup 500 and a 169 Panda on the driveway, so I'll see what I can discover once it stops raining.

 

[DaveMcT]

Good tip. Thanks

The figures I looked up were for older 500s. I had a hunch that something close to my 2007 Panda would be more likely to fit and of course the newer cars (Panda and 500) are bigger so probably everything is similar but nothing is the same.

These are the spec numbers

Fiat 500 2009

Wheelbase: 2300 mm / 90.6 in

Front track: 1414 mm / 55.7 in

Rear track: 1408 mm / 55.4 in

—————————————————————————————————
Panda 2007

Wheelbase: 2299 mm / 90.5 in

Front track: 1366 mm / 53.8 in

Rear track: 1357 mm / 53.4 in

 

[DaveMcT]

I was watching this one but being a 2012 it's presumably a no go. Though superficially it looks very similar and the car they scrapped looks like the older style (to my eyes at least). Edit I can't see any sort of anti roll bar.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172309698732?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

This looks cheap. Then check out the underside. :yuck:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-500-...371393?hash=item41b0c1e541:g:oNkAAOSwdzVXswVi

There are Panda back ends available but this one looks almost as bad as mine. Listing ended but its worth about 2p.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fiat-pand...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[Asa James]

The beam I have and took measurements off is a 2010 model with the integrated anti roll bar, so off the later one

 

[DaveMcT]

We need the Panda 2003 to 2012 mounting hole dimensions across the frame to compare to the 500 subframes that have the same spring carriers.

If the 500 spring carrier and chassis mounting dims are the same its beam should fit the Mk 2 Panda. The Panda hubs and carriers might reduce the overall track, but the 1.2 Panda has at least 35mm wheel arch to tyre clearance.

 

[jrkitching]

I was watching this one but being a 2012 it's presumably a no go. Though superficially it looks very similar and the car they scrapped looks like the older style (to my eyes at least). Edit I can't see any sort of anti roll bar.

That's the later type of rear beam. You can see the stiffening tube running through it (that's what some folks refer to as the anti roll bar).

The second link is the earlier type of beam, without the tube.

On the 500, different springs & shocks are needed to use the later type of beam.

As I posted earlier, s/h examples of the earlier type of beam will likely be well rusted by now.

IMO rear beam corrosion is going to scrap a lot of 500's/Pandas.

 

[jrkitching]

I've got both a revised setup 500 and a 169 Panda on the driveway, so I'll see what I can discover once it stops raining.

I'm sorry to say it's not good news for anyone contemplating fitting a 500 rear beam to a Panda.

The brackets on the rear beam to which the hubs are bolted are different - that is likely how the track difference is accomplished. These brackets are securely welded to the rear beam and are an integral part of it. It's possible that the 500 beam will fit (I haven't checked the dimensions between the mounting holes but I'd be surprised if they were different), but the rear track will be about 40mm greater.

The attached pictures explain the difference better than words.

The rear beam itself is crudely made, as well as being inadequately protected against corrosion, and illustrates Fiat's bargain basement approach to the parts most folks never see. The bodyshell may be galvanised, but rust elsewhere will still put many cars in the scrapyard after ten years or so.

These cars are both about six years old - the state of corrosion is worrying and I will need to get this sorted soon. Doing this properly probably means removing the rear beams.

 

[DaveMcT]

Big thanks to jrkitching for the images.

Edit: Thanks for measuring the distance between brake back plates on both models. Looks like 49.5" (Panda) against 51.5" (500/Ka) so thats the 2" wider track explained.

It's possibly not a disaster at least for basic model Panda owners.

Sitting on it's wheels the car has 4" (100mm) vertical clearance between tyre and wheel arch. The shock absorbers have 4" of clean(er) surface showing their travel limit. I can't find a definitive spec for rear wheel travel.

The vertical tyre clearance between inside of wheel arch and outside edge of tyre is 30mm. The tread area is narrower than the fattest part of the tyre I was working from. Front tyres are much closer to the wheel arches with tighter clearances.

The 500 has a 25mm wider each side than the Panda so there is enough space for a worst case full bump wheel travel (100% to the top). However, its unlikely to be suitable for the 100bhp with it's larger wheels and lowered suspension. Lower spec cars with alloy wheels could also run into trouble.

 

[jrkitching]

It's possibly not a disaster at least for basic model Panda owners.

The 500 beam will likely fit, but somehow I doubt the car will look right and there will be potential insurance issues.

Personally with a basic Panda I'd try to find a secondhand beam from one of the late model Panda 169's. Any secondhand old type 500 beams will by now be at least 7yrs old and may be little better than what you're replacing; the new type 500 beam just introduces further compatibility issues with springs & shocks.

100HP owners are probably in a hard place since IIRC the beam is specific to that model; secondhand ones seem to be scarce, expensive and rusty. New OEM parts are even more expensive and won't be available forever. If I had a decent 100HP, I'd definitely be taking steps now to corrosion proof the rear beam.

 

[Asa James]

I'll be honest, one of the steps I was going to take was to space the wheels out, so this may work to a certain degree for me, like I say I have a late 500 beam sat in my garage, I'll do some thinking and planning this weekend...

 

[DaveMcT]

The 500 beam will likely fit, but somehow I doubt the car will look right and there will be potential insurance issues.

Personally with a basic Panda I'd try to find a secondhand beam from one of the late model Panda 169's. Any secondhand old type 500 beams will by now be at least 7yrs old and may be little better than what you're replacing; the new type 500 beam just introduces further compatibility issues with springs & shocks.

100HP owners are probably in a hard place since IIRC the beam is specific to that model; secondhand ones seem to be scarce, expensive and rusty. New OEM parts are even more expensive and won't be available forever. If I had a decent 100HP, I'd definitely be taking steps now to corrosion proof the rear beam.

My thoughts TBH.

Does the 100bhp use the 500 beam? It has wider wheels but there is MUCH less wheel arch clearance than the basic versions.

Superficially, apart from the roll bar tube, the later 500 beams look the same as the Panda 169. Do you know what the differences are in springs and shocks? Maybe just softer springs to suit the stiffer anti roll bar/beam.

The Ford Ka looks to have the 500 beam so maybe would also be an option. They've not been upgraded (officially) since the model started in 2009.

 

[Asa James]

Had a peek under my hp tonight, it uses the panda width beam. I'm also going to get what measurements I can off a new shape panda this weekend as well, it looks entirely different at first glance, but who knows it might match up perfectly