Technical Non synchro gearbox

[Luidee500]

Hi all. Im new to the forum. I've always loved fiat500s since I was a kid. My dad was Italian and I have fond memories of our trips to italy and him driving me around his home town in a 500 now I finally have my own.

He is a 1970 L 499cc LHD called Luigi and we are in England. No service history and as far as i can tell it has not been restored at all (other than a respray)

I am pretty sure it has a non synchro gearbox as the engine looks very much original and I don't think someone would fit a new gearbox unless they were fitting a new engine?!

Ive never driven a non synchro before. Does anyone have an easy how-to guide or tips? My husband drove him last week and some gear changes were ok and some felt wrong. Im worried about hurting him so any guides or tips on how to double declutch would be so appreciated!

Many thanks!
Luidee500

 

[fiat500]

The first thing would be to avoid gear changing as much as possible;certainly less than in a modern car. You might often get away with setting off in 2nd, especially if travelling light and pointing slightly downhill.
Change gear much more slowly than you're probably used to. Try to feel for the distinct "H" pattern of the gear stick rather than swiping in one movement; eg, almost momentarily stop in the middle when going down from 3rd to 2nd.
It is at that fractional point when halfway between gears when going down the range that a very subtle blip on the throttle will help the gear engage. You have to imagine that sudden rev in engine speed that happens when you change down when learning to drive. You have to try and pre-empt that and speed it up as the lower gear engages.
It's tricky and probably won't work going down to first. Sometimes you need to relax and almost let the car coast momentarly and gently slot the gear in.
Good luck with that.

 

[the hobbler]

morning Luidee;
It is very easy to check which gear-box you have in Luigi---check where the starter is. If it is at the top of the gearbox--centre, top, front of engine--then it is most probably the 500 'dog-clutch' 'box (NON-synchro) which WILL require you to 'double de-clutch' on down-changes. Up changes can be accomplished normally as long as you don't try to rush the gear-change. Double de-clutching enables you to physically balance engine and gear-box speeds, something YOU have to do as there are no synchro hubs within the gear-box to do this for you. To achieve this, you (briefly) lift your foot off the clutch between taking the box out of the higher gear and putting it into the lower gear. At the same time as you lift your foot off the clutch mid-change, lightly blip the throttle. You are therefore dipping the clutch TWICE on the downshifts. Look on google at 'double de-clutching techniques'--you will find a number of sites on the procedure including a video. Once you have mastered double de-clutching you can learn to 'heel 'n toe'--a technique that allows you to down-change and brake at the same time---simples!
A couple of bits of advice--(1) do NOT try and engage 1st gear unless the car is stationary (2) I would always pull away in 1st gear with these cars, and finally--try and practice on a modern car, it won't sound so painful if you get it wrong!

 

[Luidee500]

Hi Hobbler,

Thanks so much for the tips. Really appreciate it. Especially only doing it on the down change as I thought it was both ways. I've watched a few youtube videos and been practicing on my ford ka this week

it seems (or sounds) like luigi needs more revs going up the gears than you would usually need on a modern car...does that seem normal? It was too wet to take him out today but hopefully tomorrow will be dry! Last time we only went to 55kmp. What would you say is a realistic sensible top speed for him? Would 70kmp be ok? Im so worried about hurting him! But hopefully get to know him soon. Thanks again

 

[Luidee500]

Hi fiat 500, thanks for the info and the explanation that helps get into my head why we need to do it/what im trying to achieve. It makes sense what u say about visualising the h more too. Cant wait to take him out again. Hope its dry tomorrow.

 

[tjmra]

Hobbs has pretty well nailed it. I must warn you that if you practice the double shuffle in a modern car and get your sequencing wrong you need to make sure that there is no one in front of you. A blip of throttle when you are still in gear when you are coming up behind someone at an intersection may lead to tears.........

It is a great feeling when you master the art of the shuffle and the heel/toe when you need to break at the same time. It becomes second nature. This is the main reason I have not put in a bigger motor and a synchro box. I suspect one day I will get over it and make the mod. (I have resisted through 28 years of ownership though.)

You should have some red markers on your speedo (I, II, III). These are the maximum speed indicators for the first three gears.

Rgards

Joe R

 

[Luidee500]

Wow thanks Joe that is a huge help! I will have a look for the makers. That's great. Hope I master it all soon

 

[the hobbler]

Morning Luidee;
In my 'yoof' I ran a 500 (my wife and I had only been married about 3 months when we moved lock, stock and barrel from south London to Edinburgh in our 500--and I do mean EVERYTHING we owned!) and at 55km I would still have been in 3rd gear. Seriously, a sensible top sped for the 500 was about 95kmh. You should be able to cruise at about 80kmh (50mph) without any harm to your 'wee beastie' Don't forget, the engine was designed for Italians who, generally speaking, have only 2 throttle positions---fully off and fully on! My own 500 (albeit with a standard 126 650cc engine in it) cruises at between 95-105km (60-65mph) without any problem. Your query regarding needing more revs when going up the gears is normal--don't forget you only have about 17bhp, so go to the speedo marks before changing up otherwise you will be very 'off cam' in the new gear and the engine will struggle to pick-up---go out, enjoy and have fun.

 

[Luidee500]

Awww thank you so much Hobbler. Sounds like we are being far too prescious with him as we didn't get to 4th gear last week ha. Let the fun begin!!! Thanks again

 

[dragonwagon]

In my youth (and to this day..) I still think of the red marks for 2nd & 3rd gear speeds on the speedo to be pretty much advisory and have always considered these marks to be the minimum change up speeds or suffer the ignominy of having the engine completely off the boil.
My original 500 had the useful feature of a vibrating interior mirror - when the image smoothed out you were approaching maximum revs - so it became an impromptu rev counter.

Takes a hell of a lot of abuse to kill a 500 - 120k miles of treating the throttle as an on/off switch never did...I'm likely to use the same technique with my current car too!

Enjoy it and don't worry about killing it.

Oh, with practice fast, quiet clutchless changes can be achieved every time

 

[ecdy]

As with a Porsche, the secret is to keep the revs up. It might sound horrible compared to a Toyota, but my Italian friends say to not worry. Of course with 500cc if you don't keep the revs up you don't get anywhere e either. But you do have to shift a lot to do that, so practice double-declutching. Also. I've found that, if you shift slowly enough, you can feel when the gears drop in. It's a pretty intimate relationship with the car, and I much like it.

 

[Luidee500]

Thanks everyone.

Went for our 2nd spin on sunday and was great! So pleased we now know about the red markers on the speedo, that's made a huge difference as we weren't giving anywhere near enough revs going up the gears previously.
Was so much fun this time and less stressful ha.

Down changes are a lot better now too but we sometimes hear a loudish "clunk" when the gear drops in. Its not grinding or screeching just a single clink. Does that sound like when we are trying to match the revs they are still too hi / not matched enough?

Will keep practicing. Hope the weather's good this weekend!